GM plans to phase out Apple CarPlay in EVs, with Google's help
Comments
helmsb
croutonwagon
100% this is true.
Even a decent head unit these days has a HORRID UI.
I put a Kenwood DMX907s into my truck, specifically for the Carplay and/or Andorid Auto experience (being wireless carplay/AA)
Whenever I have to actually use the headunit, its shockingly bad UI. Ford, GM etc have similar. And they charge out the wazoo to do upgrade on poor unsuspecting customers like my in-laws, that rather opt to come visit and let me deal with the quirks (and there are plenty, including what type of USB-A drive you can use to perform an upgrade, nevermind trying an OTA on wifi and allowing the truck to idle for 4 hour in the driveway...)
Given that most cars now rely on in-dash/touchscreen style feature gadgets to attract new buys over things like reliability/serviceability, you would think they would prefer to allow the techy's do the software and UI design in Apple/Google and not vendor lock one or the other. I would guess whatever company opts to go with a seamless carplay/AA experience, possibly with a control app for things like AC controls, would be king in this spacec (NOTE: ive given up asking for 3 knob AC controls, apparently I the only soul this earth that things 3 knobs that doest require visual attention to adjust the climate in a car is perfection.)
genmud
I actually got rid of a chevy truck for this precise reason. GMs design choices in their god-awful infotainment system was so annoying I couldn't stand using it. I got rid of that thing within a year and traded it for a F150, which had a significantly better UI and support for apple carplay (even though it required it to be plugged in).
Its like nobody ever used their vehicles before they shipped it.
Some of my favorite anti-patterns (circa 2015):
- No way to remote start the vehicle with the remote (required a subscription and a phone app to remote start the car) - No way to enter navigation destinations in head unit (required subscription and phone app to do any GPS) - If you didn't have a phone, you had to use a phone based service - Bluetooth connections would randomly stop working - Bluetooth controls would only work from head unit requiring you to remove your hand from the wheel - Some faults would require you to turn off the vehicle, open the door and wait 30 seconds for the head unit to reboot
Overall, 0 / 10... would never own another vehicle from them again.
hedora
I recently drove a brand new Chevy Bolt. It seemed to have a navigation system, but whenever I tried to activate it, I think it tried to make a phone call to a human(?). Anyway, it doesn't have a keyboard, and doesn't seem to even have onboard voice recognition. Hard pass.
Car play support was decent about 80% of the time. The other 20%, I had to delete the phone pairing and repair to get it to reconnect.
I wasn't particularly impressed, especially given that this car has been in production since 2017, so I'd expect the radio software, etc. to be stable.
mleo
I have 2019 Bolt. I don’t use any of the native infotainment UI. The navigation probably required OnStar subscription and why you were getting connected to a person to take credit card. I use the screen with wireless CarPlay adapter. Very few problems, more with the adapter, and never had to pair the phone more than once. The car is fine, though I would replace it. I drive so little I can not justify the cost of new car, even with trade-in.
SOLAR_FIELDS
A daily infuriation for me is that my wife’s 2016 Chevy Equinox does not have a way for you to adjust the default volume of the radio in the firmware for some inexplicable reason. When you power on the vehicle, it’s set to “10” on some arbitrary radio station. There is no way to start the car with the volume muted - you are forced to always have the radio on or turn off the entire unit.
https://www.terrainforum.net/threads/radio-always-comes-on-w...
helmsb
My 2018 F-150 does something similar and it’s very annoying. I’ve figured out a workaround to mostly prevent it though. There are 3 “groups” of presets for SiriusXM (not a subscriber) and I just set them all to the ID station where there is no sound. It will randomly change to the next group inexplicably but 99% of the time it keeps it from switching to the radio—which I never want.
DANmode
These in-dash displays should be universal, with a female USB (C?) port nearby for the user to attach their preferred device.
Same with most desks.
Terretta
Agree with you on desks!
We build our desks standard with OWC TB4 dock (same OEM part as Brydge or Kensington's TB4s) and a 3 way watch+phone+airpods charger with pivot head for the phone. Indeed the dock has four TB4/USB-C, and 4 USB-A ports as well.
What amazes me (not really, it's par for course) is even the most modern furniture makers are still building 12 watt (2.4amp) USB-A ports into their desks and conference tables instead of 100w - 240w chargers.
Desks should have a fireproof box underneath that can hold GaN chargers such as this one like a cartridge:
https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Station-WOTOBEUS-5-Ports-Char...
With ultra short and heavy duty connector cables to a replaceable plug strip.
As a super easy retrofit though, just plug this underneath a desk or standing desk, and set the flat part on top next to the monitor(s) stand(s):
olyjohn
We had din sized standards for years. Every display now is still some sort of rectangle. There's no reason we can't come up with another din-like standard for displays. Put some fucking 10 cents RCA connectors on it so I can hook up some amps and speakers that don't suck. Put a CAN bus interface so that may head unit can read all that data from your car and display it. Then you can buy whatever infortainment system you want and keep your car from becoming a dated turd inside.
benhurmarcel
The huge advantage of having the phone running the infotainment is that you already pay for the phone's data connection. If the car does it you need to pay an additional subscription to get that data connection.
awill
THIS!
GM has done this so they can charge monthly fees, and it sucks.
rektide
I 90% agree, but also, there's a ton of informational & sensors & systems that need control. With physical knobs/dials/switches/buttons disappearing, the main console now has a lot more obligations than just infotainment like it used to, and it's not clear that letting a phone run the show is really viable with what's afoot, given the scope of systems the display has to control. Wait, sorry. It's not clear how we'd get sufficient data to the phone to let it try. We just don't have clear starting places to let the phone act as a good puppet-master over such an expansive complex multi-screened roving multi-functional device.
This is actually a very interesting ubiquitous & pervasive computing challenge. If we do want to let the phone be the main thing in control, it has to access & orchestrate a lot more systems than it has.
Back in 2012, the BMW/Land Rover/Jaguar folk (I think they were one entity then?) car-maker had started making interesting demos based on an already longstanding very interesting user-first user-sovereign ubicomp project, Webinos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webinos, still a halcyon model of what connected-computing might have been (but with almost no uptake)), & were making really interesting API-based integrations, over effectively VPN networks directly to their cars. I don't remember whether things like HVAC control or lighting were integrated (I suspect so), but there were definitely a lot of examples of radar/lidar integration, engine information (tach, fuel remaining, battery voltages, et cetera). This >10 year old example is by far the most pro-user most open-possibility system we've ever done, by a country mile. https://www.wired.com/2012/10/bmw-webinos/
One of the most interesting things to me was just a couple short years latter, 2015, with the Jeep hack. The emphasis was that someone could gain access to your car network & do bad things, but this was the first time we'd ever gotten a real peak into a car network & it was fascinating. The often-underlying QNX OS it turns out- even though it is not Linux- runs a bog-standard-ish FreeDesktop DBus service bus, and all car systems are exposed over DBus. ALL car services. So like, one could fully automate & script their own car, via the Jeep hack (which IIRC typically required some physical access to break in via). It would be utterly trivial to script a bunch of nice lighting & sound effects, to roll back the moon-roof & dynamically set a mild thumping VU meter lighting, to dynamically roll the EQ low & high,... the possibilities were so open, over such a common well known easy to control system. The Jeep Hack was the most exciting look at what life could be like, but it was mostly used to sell Fear Uncertainty & Doubt, to insure even less people had access to cars.
Somewhere someplace sometime this trend needs to turn around. Somewhere someplace sometime we need to start figuring out how to pipe relevant systems to the user's agent. Rather than forever letting the car take-over more and more, forever reducing agency, forever shrinking what is possible.
AdamJacobMuller
> With physical knobs/dials/switches/buttons disappearing
You have identified the problem.
rektide
It does suck that physical interfaces are going away, but I feel like there's still a real & interesting challenge to let people use their own user agent, rather than just become reliant on whatever premade jumble of systems a car happens to cook up for itself.
rhtgrg
Yes, removing CarPlay is not a great move, and is rightfully being bashed in this thread -- but these kinds of OEM integrations are far beyond a smartphone subsitute, especially given what's coming down the pipe for auto. As you allude to in your comment already, CarPlay is a "projection", a one-way deal -- whereas most of these integrations make heavy use of data from car sensors, which enables a lot of high fidelity features (including self-driving and advanced HUD indicators) that simply aren't possible with a smartphone, no matter how "independently upgraded" it is.
In the future, perhaps phones can integrate better with cars and enable that kind of experience, but we aren't there today.
jiggawatts
You are being down voted in part because you're factually wrong. Apple Carplay is not one-way projection. The phone receives inputs from the car, such as screen touches, the microphone audio from the driver for phone calls, button presses, GPS signals, and even wheel speed information for navigation in tunnels.
The reason this integration is not better is in no shape, way, or form Apple's fault. It is 110% caused by the atrocious hardware and software in cars, which is literally decades behind the rest of the world.
olyjohn
I still blame Apple and Google partly. Why do we need 2 proprietary projection methods? How about make one standard for any phone or device to connect to the in car display? They fight to dominate the automotive space, and all we get is more and more lock in.
rhtgrg
Unfortunately, I know exactly why I'm being downvoted, and that's not it. It should be rather obvious that "screen touches" are not the category of comms I was talking about.
Perhaps you meant to say "this is why I downvoted you", in which case, I appreciate you taking the time to state your piece.
Tagbert
And I don't need that level of integration. The passive CarPlay UI projection is exactly what I want. It's not all about driving to charging stations. That is a rare occurrence.
hedora
CarPlay works surprisingly well for driving to charging stations.
You tap add waypoint (or whatever) in Apple Maps, then tap EV charging station, or tap siri, and say "DC fast charger" or whatever. (Tested with a Chevy Bolt).
However the navigation isn't as well integrated with range, etc, as was common on older vehicles.
If this wasn't a blatant "have Google pay us to force our customers to give Google their data" move, I'd be cautiously optimistic that they weren't just trying to shovel crapware into their cars.
geoelectric
My Ioniq 5 and (iirc) Teslas charge better if you use the native nav, as it starts preconditioning when a charger is the destination. For mine in particular, I’m not sure there’s another way to fire off preconditioning. May or may not matter but it can make a difference in cold.
Tagbert
That only matters in the rare times that I might need to drive long distances to a commercial charging station. 90% of the time I’m charging at home. I don’t want to give up my personalized experience just for the occasional time when I might want to use a different routing app.
kiawe_fire
Well this sucks.
I bought a Chevy Blazer last year, and it’s the best car I’ve ever owned. Great balance of design, gas mileage, comfort, etc.
I was definitely planning to make my next car the EV version of this.
Part of that package is flawless CarPlay integration. It’s simplified the music and navigation experience more than I ever thought possible.
The only reason I wouldn’t demand it on my next car is if something demonstrably and overwhelmingly better came along.
Everything described in the article sounds worse.
Subscription services tied to my car and not my phone?
Needing to maintain navigation routes on my car AND my phone?
Being forced to use only built in apps like Spotify instead of “whatever is on my phone that supports car play”?
Waiting on my car to decide when I can get the newest navigation app or the latest update to Spotify like this is some janky non-Roku smart TV from 2012?
No thanks.
> GM's decision to stop offering those systems in future electric vehicles, starting with the 2024 Chevrolet Blazer, could help the automaker capture more data on how consumers drive and charge EVs.
That doesn’t even make sense.
NONE of those things would require an absence of CarPlay, nor would they require the presence of some omnipresent Google / GM replacement.
Those metrics are all collected by the systems using them, with the infotainment simply being one possible UI for display of those metrics.
Sucks. Just when I found a car brand and manufacturer that seemed to be doing things well, and I was excited for the EV version of it, they pull this.
Why can’t I have nice things?
JohnBooty
Part of that package is flawless CarPlay integration.
It’s simplified the music and navigation experience
more than I ever thought possible.
Personally I don't use Android and could live without it if needed, but I have friends who do and it's nice for them to be able to plug their phones in and navigate or DJ when in my car.
People don't want another device to manage. They want their auto to be a display device for their mobile device, with which they are already infinitely familiar.
nashashmi
I think the data collection part is a surmise from the author.
kotaKat
I mean, GM did gather the listening habits of 90,000 "volunteers".
kiawe_fire
Thank you. Re-reading it, I’m sure you’re correct.
> GM would benefit from focusing engineers and investment on one approach to more tightly connecting in-vehicle infotainment and navigation with features such as assisted driving, Edward Kummer, GM's chief digital officer, and Mike Himche, executive director of digital cockpit experience, said in an interview.
This is the actual reasoning provided by GM sources in the article. I jumped the gun.
I can very much sympathize with the desire to concentrate engineering efforts, and I’m sure there are things they would love to spend time on that would be eclipsed or ignored if the user lives in CarPlay or Android Auto.
But this is concentrating resources in the wrong direction, for the wrong reasons, with little useful gain.
KennyBlanken
It's not supposition. Every vehicle that has telematics hardware, regardless of subscription status or options purchased, is sending a near constant stream of location, vehicle, and environmental data back to the manufacturer.
The only way to stop it is to disconnect the antenna for the cellular modem or cut its power.
SamuelAdams
Yeah I noticed this on my 2023 Mazda CX-5. What’s worse - even if you don’t use the MyMazda app, telematics data is still sent to Mazda. Is there a YouTube video series that explains how to rip out these TCU’s?
More on telematics control units:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telematic_control_unit?wprov=s...
agloe_dreams
> if something demonstrably and overwhelmingly better came along.
I'm pretty sure that is what GM's play is here. There's a lot of confusion. They are moving to Google Automotive Services, complete with Android and the Play store where you pick what is on your car. Apple music is one of those apps.
> Subscription services tied to my car and not my phone?
Data Subscription, it is Google play under it all.
> Needing to maintain navigation routes on my car AND my phone?
Google Maps is on both and would likely work as well.
> Being forced to use only built in apps like Spotify instead of “whatever is on my phone that supports car play”? Google Play, how you get apps in next-gen GM Android Automotive would have the same apps.
It works exactly like having a Mac/PC and a phone.
JohnBooty
It works exactly like having a Mac/PC and a phone.
Now I'd have to manage credentials on two different devices. Change my Spotify password? Two places to update it. Etc. And now I've got credentials stored in my car? That's a security situation to worry about in case of breakin/theft.
It also totally kills the use case of letting multiple passengers simply plug their phones into the car's head unit. Might have my phone, my wife's phone, or the passengers' phones plugged into the head unit depending on who's doing the navigating and who's doing the DJ'ing. Now thanks to GM instead of simply swapping the cable, I guess we can take turns signing in and out of a bunch of different apps? lol, nooooooo thanks.
I thought auto makers were finally wising up about a couple of things. One, it looks like they're finally slowly coming back around to physical controls where it makes sense.
Two, I thought they were giving up on the idea of their own bespoke entertainment solutions in favor of giving people what they actually want, which is Airplay/Android Auto. People don't want another device to manage. They just want to plug their freaking phone in.
Normally I wouldn't be irritated; I'd be happy to let the market vote. But cars are complicated beasts these days and there's an awful lot of functionality to demo and digest when shopping. There are a lot of auto features that aren't obviously terrible or obviously amazing; they only reveal themselves as such after you've lived with them for a little while.
leipert
> It works exactly like having a Mac/PC and a phone
Have you seen the shitshow which modern TVs are with their smart apps that stop functioning over time? A car is supposed to function for longer than 2 years and who is gonna force the manufacturer to support updates longer than that?
With CarPlay I am able to bring a functioning Nav, Music and everything.
hedora
Presumably the downvotes are because, from the point of view of an Apple user, every single thing you mentioned is demonstrably worse.
- Apple Music, but now Google can spy on my music tastes? No thanks!
- Data subscription for my car? Why would I possibly want to pay for that?
- Google Maps: Again, Apple users have opted out of this ecosystem. Apple Maps is fine. Other options are also fine. Google Maps is my 4th or 5th choice. The whole point of this integration (per GM) is to force users onto Google Maps, and off competitive map services.
- It's like having a PC and an iPhone, or a Mac and and Android. Either way, all the cross device synchronization stuff breaks badly. Concretely: will my android maps car use siri in a privacy preserving way to check my CalDav calendar to see that I have a meeting across town, then offer to start navigation with a single tap? I think not.
seanmcdirmid
You can use google maps to route in your car via Apple CarPlay. You just have to tell Siri to use google maps. My BMW also has its own routing software, which I use sometimes due to a spurious gps bug that affects CarPlay but not the BMW Xdrive stack itself.
hedora
If the car does not support carplay, how would that work though?
abruzzi
My biggest issue with this would be that the Apple Music app only streams from the streaming service. Those of use happily chugging along with iTunes purchases and iTunes Match are out of luck.
seanmcdirmid
CarPlay will stream via Spotify. But Apple doesn’t extend the same to HomePod’s for some reason.
alistairSH
Google Maps is on both
Not mine. Oh well, another reason to skip GM.
kiawe_fire
> There's a lot of confusion. They are moving to Google Automotive Services, complete with Android and the Play store where you pick what is on your car.
Thanks. That clarifies, considering the article gives the impression this would be a GM-siloed system built in collaboration with Google.
The problems remain mostly the same, and the notion of GM de-facto crowning Google and its Android-based solution the "one true solution" feels like something that will isolate iPhone users.
There's a big difference between being able to use Apple Music because it's an app offered on the Google Auto Services version of the Play Store, and the general-purpose solution of being able to use it because Apple Music supports CarPlay and your car supports CarPlay.
There are other potential issues that I don't know the answer to without a bit more research. What about multiple users? The beauty of the Android Auto / CarPlay model was that my friend could hop into my car, plug in his phone, and immediately get access to his Spotify app, already on his phone, with his stuff. And just as quickly as he does that, he can unplug and let my paired phone take over again.
It's really a beautiful design in its simplicity for the end user - no installing apps, no signing in to an account on "yet another device", if it's on your phone, and it supports CarPlay, then you get it in your car.
Not only does it sound like this replaces that for iPhone users, it ALSO sounds like some of these problems will exist equally for Android Auto users, as once again you are moving the environment of apps and services from the individual user's phone, into the car.
Edit:
Doing a bit more research on Google Automotive Services specifically, I found this in an article [1]:
> Android Automotive is also responsible for every interaction with your car's in-dash display. [...] Even iOS users will launch CarPlay through Automotive, a humorous convergence of the two platforms.
If this applies, then it sounds like CarPlay could indeed be an option, by way of an app downloaded from the Play Store. If so, this mitigates a healthy number of my issues. However, if so, then why the article declaring CarPlay is going away in GM if it isn't?
Just very poor article writing? Lack of knowledge amongst the people interviewed at this stage?
Also, next from the article is this:
> GAS (yes, the acronym is almost certainly on purpose) is all of your favorite Google system applications rolled into one package. As an end-user, you'll never interact with GAS by its chosen name. Instead, you'll see the benefits of this system, specifically if you purchase a car from one of Google's partners.
> Considering how many drivers, especially in the U.S., rely on iOS and CarPlay to get from place to place, it makes sense that some automakers (especially smaller companies) might pass on adopting these services.
So... what does this mean? CarPlay and GAS are mutually exclusive? Can individual auto makers determine which apps are available in the Play Store?
I'm left with about as many questions as have been answered.
[1] https://www.androidpolice.com/android-auto-vs-android-automo...
seanmcdirmid
It sounds right: in my car, Xdrive is the actual underlying stack beneath CarPlay. I can use my car without launching CarPlay, but it will route Siri request through CarPlay in a fairly seamless manner. It sounds like Android is going to replace the underlying stack that CarPlay can still be implemented on top of. I’ve heard that Apple is implementing a similar base OS as well.
KMnO4
I don’t think I would buy a car that didn’t have CarPlay. I’m an iPhone user and have no interest in changing my phone.
People reject cars all the time for even more trivial things (oh — this one doesn’t have wireless charging? Next.), so I can’t imagine this being a smart idea for GM.
lotsofpulp
Not to mention, isn’t CarPlay just an interface for the phone to be able to connect to so the screen can display the software operating on the phone?
Near zero cost to GM, tons of convenience for GM’s customers. I can only imagine GM wants customers’ data or subscription fees, and Apple will not allow that. And this is a business that got bailed out by US taxpayers, and is explicitly too big to fail.
conk
It’s a cost to GM because they can’t nickel and dime their customers with subscription fees if customers can use the phone service they already have.
JKCalhoun
Weird how the inability to gouge is now seen as a "cost".
smoldesu
We've been struggling with this one for a while on the "open source app store" side of the conversation.
adastra22
Opportunity cost
SllX
> And this is a business that got bailed out by US taxpayers, and is explicitly too big to fail.
Isn’t this just the gift that just keeps on giving?
imwithstoopid
problem is (from GM's perspective), with CarPlay, Apple takes over the UX of the car...the Apple logo is the first and last thing people see when driving
GM doesn't want Apple or Google taking over the UX of the car, because then GM is eventually just another FoxConn
and sure, there's a money thing...they want revshare from Spotify and every other app they can position in the UI
CarPlay and Android Auto will be gone as fast as car makers can make it happen
voisin
> the Apple logo is the first and last thing people see when driving
This isn’t how it works in my Dodge. There is a Dodge logo / startup screen first, then a “don’t use screen while driving sign that I am forced to accept every time” and then it shows me CarPlay.
thebiss
Same as my current circa-2017 GM car, which shows a home screen with buttons or blank screen with the time. There is no Apple OR GM logo.
kulahan
Same in my BMW. The last thing I see is also a BMW logo across all my dash screens.
ganoushoreilly
Same on my Audi, Volkswagen, and Fords here to. I'm not sure I understand this fear at all. I know carplay and the car are different systems.
Tagbert
In many vehicles, CarPlay and Android Auto appear within a panel on the overall interface, they don't have to take over the whole UI.
MBCook
All vehicles.
Apple announced the total UI takeover option (though I’m not sure if it works today) but no car maker supports it on a shipping vehicle.
Many have announced interest but at this point we don’t know if it will ever be available, even if only on some kind of ultra-luxury car.
chaostheory
There’s always the aftermarket. If CarPlay stops being a standard option, that is the first thing I will do with a new car: replace the AV
MBCook
As cars move away from traditional DIN stuff and more towards multiple screens with no physical “radio” on the dash in the classic sense… is that still an option?
chaostheory
It’s there’s a market, there will likely be a way. That’s one of capitalism’s strengths.
seanmcdirmid
Maybe not for an EV.
Tagbert
The head units are so integrated and specific to vehicles now that I doubt that a third party unit would work and provide all that you need from it. The most you might get is a secondary screen that displayed CarPlay/AndroidAuto but then connected to the car via Bluetooth which is a serious downgrade.
adastra22
I drive a 2021 Toyota RAV4. The CarPlay interface takes over the whole screen. It also does so in every rental or borrowed car I’ve ever driven.
Tagbert
Yes, in older designs with the smaller screens it does need to take over. EVs are moving to larger screens where there is room to place CarPlay into one section of the screen and keep other areas “native”.
TedDoesntTalk
> CarPlay and Android Auto will be gone as fast as car makers can make it happen
This will also be an opportunity for other car manufacturers to differentiate themselves: “We still support CarPlay”
imwithstoopid
> This will also be an opportunity for other car manufacturers to differentiate themselves: “We still support CarPlay”
but I doubt CarPlay will even end up as the lowest-common-denominator...one of GM or Mercedes or whoever will try to get their system good enough that they can license it to other car companies...so CarOS or whatever will be the default if your car brand doesn't have a bespoke experience
I like Android Auto and use it all the time, but I can't fault GM for not wanting to be treated as just another OEM...FoxConn does all the hard work for Apple on the hardware side and isn't even allowed to put their name on the product...the ultimate replaceable cog
Apple might have been received better by car makers if it hadn't threatened to be developing their own vehicle...now all the car makers see them as a competitive threat
lotsofpulp
Cars and small electronic devices are not comparable.
GM is only doing this because they see an avenue to charge recurring fees, which smartphones obviated.
dkarbayev
I don’t think it’ll work anyway. BMW has been stubborn on CarPay integration by not supporting it or asking a hefty price for “CarPlay preparation” (which is, as far as I’m concerned, mostly installing a WiFi antenna on the head unit), all because it would have cannibalized their revenue from map updates and other remote services (e.g. real-time traffic information). But in the end, BMW gave up and CarPlay is included in all models by default starting 2022 or 2023, don’t remember exactly.
seanmcdirmid
Included on my 2022 model.
sbahr001
Typically, you see the logo before you get into the actual car. I would say you can tell by the shape, but some brands share too much in the looks department (cough Kia/Hyundai).
lotsofpulp
Kia and Hyundai are effectively the same company.
I assume Kia is South Korea’s lower end offering, Hyundai is their mid tier offering, and Genesis is their luxury offering.
vvillena
Nowadays Kia and Hyundai target different segments, but quality is about the same. Kia also does more region-specific models, like the Ceed in Europe and the Telluride in US, while Hyundai seems to have a more global strategy where they choose what to sell from a portfolio of global models.
flyingcircus3
The reactions in this thread are interesting, because they seem to imply that this is the final straw that has convinced us to not buy Chevrolets and Buicks, as opposed to the last 30+ years of of their products being generally terrible.
alistairSH
If I needed a full-size truck, I'd consider a GM (alongside Toyota and Ford). Without CarPlay, I'll buy one of the other brands.
If I wanted a near-supercar, I'd consider a Corvette. Without CarPlay, I'll buy a Cayman S or something else instead. The Corvette might be measurably better in most performance metrics, but if I can't use the apps I'm accustomed to using, I won't buy it.
The rest of the GM line-up? Yeah, pretty uninspiring.
ydant
My household has 3 EV Chevy cars - Volt, Bolt, Spark. Buying another Chevy EV at some point was certainly a possibility.
I even use Android, and don't personally care that much about Apple support, and I'm still unhappy about this and it's making me less interested in Chevy for the next car.
gpanders
It's not mentioned in the headline, but GM also intends to phase out Android Auto, so this is not specific to iPhones.
>General Motors plans to phase out widely-used Apple CarPlay and Android Auto technologies that allow drivers to bypass a vehicle's infotainment systems, shifting instead to built-in infotainment systems developed with Google for future electric vehicles.
fghorow
Personally, I LOVE my (2019) Volt. FWIW, it also has AA/Car Play.
First they kill the Volt -- IMHO the best PHEV on the market when I bought it -- now they kill a vastly superior interface to anything I've ever used in a car.
Sorry GM, you might just have lost a (stockholding, for now, at least) customer.
smt88
It's been hard to predict the quality of electric vehicles based on the same brand's ICE/hybrid vehicles.
For example, Toyota is head and shoulders better than the competition at ICE and hybrids, but they're arguably last in EVs. In fact, Consumer Reports says the Chevy Bolt is currently the best EV[1].
1. https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/electric-vehicl...
KerrAvon
Sort of. I know Tesla owners who've bought Bolts as secondary cars but would not otherwise be caught dead in a GM car. There are people who buy Corvettes who wouldn't consider another GM car. I avoid American cars at all costs but was still considering a Bolt before this news.
sockaddr
Exactly. I’ve long joked that buying a Buick in the modern era is a sign of severe brain trauma. Even the economic argument doesn’t make sense when you consider the reliability.
Tempest1981
But the hope was that their new EV lineup would change things, and pull people back.
myko
The Lyriq looks really nice
nichos
That's a very 80s view of GM.
bdcravens
Not the only reason, but was definitely one reason that contributed to the decision to cancel my Model 3 order and go with a Kia EV6 instead.
browningstreet
I said my next car would have to have CarPlay but the Tesla software in my Y is good enough to live without it. I rent a lot of cars with CarPlay, and like it, but now that the Tesla software supports both Apple Music and Spotify, I’m good. That said, I wouldn’t buy a car that supported Google Carwhatever but not Apple CarPlay.
st-keller
As far as i know the tesla car has its own spotify account. So this only works, if you’re the only one driving your car. In my family up to five people drive a car - I don’t think i want one spotify-account used by five people.
owenwil
That was the case a few years ago—now you just associate your personal Spotify account with your Tesla driver profile. It auto-switches to the right one based on the driver, which works great!
mynameisvlad
This was only the case in Europe. US cars instead come with a Slacker account, and you need to associate your Spotify account to access it, same with Apple Music.
Not sure if the associations are per-user or per-car, though. I believe there was work to move them along with some other settings to your "user profile" and would go with you across cars.
bdcravens
It's not the same Spotify account you login to your phone with, or it only supports logging into one account?
peoplearepeople
It used to be that way, now you can set a spotify account per driving profile
scarface74
Supporting Apple Music isn’t enough. For instance, I use Overcast as my podcast player and it has excellent Carplay support.
I won’t buy a car that doesn’t support CarPlay.
seanmcdirmid
Tesla is the gold standard for in car infotainment. I wouldn’t trust GM or even google to be as good at software as Tesla without them establishing a track record first.
bratsche
I have a Model 3 right now and like it well enough I guess, but I think next time I get a car my ideal is to get a non-Tesla EV that has CarPlay. My hope was that Tesla has pushed the industry enough to start making competitive EVs so that I don't have to get another Tesla. And I think I would prefer using CarPlay. I've used it a couple times in rental cars and really liked it. The screens are smaller and less nice than Tesla's, but the navigation on Tesla kind of sucks compared to Apple and Google and I think that's more valuable to me.
bb123
The Model 3’s system is one of the few out there that can actually compete with/replace CarPlay.
bratsche
Model 3's system is better than other cars I've owned, but not as good as what I think CarPlay can be. The only advantage of my Model 3 vs the rental cars I've used with CarPlay was that Model 3's screen is bigger and nicer and so the maps look nicer and I can have music info/controls on screen at the same time as maps. But both Apple and Google navigation is a lot better than Tesla's navigation. I also use Apple Music and was initially excited about getting integration into Tesla, but I continue to just use it through my phone instead so it ended up not mattering. The one thing I hate about Tesla's system is the semi-frequent UI changes. A moving car with a touch screen is not the place where I want to have to re-learn some aspect of a UI after I get a system update.
zaroth
The UI updates essentially once a year to keep up the with massive influx of features that are being added, and keep those features accessible and organized on the available screen real estate.
Basically with Tesla you get the latest model year car software on an ongoing basis, and it’s revolutionary from an owner’s perspective.
The alternative is needing to trade in/buy a whole new model year car to get to enjoy whatever new feature, which is how it always used to work, and is so scammy.
If you don’t want the latest software, you can always choose not the install it, but you would be seriously limiting the performance, comfort, safety and entertainment value of your car.
Most cars don’t get faster, safer, and cheaper to operate after you buy them, but Tesla’s do. The obvious trade-off to getting the latest model year’s software and features is getting the latest model year’s UI as well.
cjdoc29
Agreed, but I have my gripes with the system. We waited a long time for Apple Music to come to the infotainment - and even then it's slow, you cannot adjust to a higher music quality, you can't download playlists to local storage, I need to login every month, etc.
Additionally, my 2019 Model 3's infotainment is noticeably slower than a 2023's. I'd hate to be limited by compute in a car that I'll probably replace in 8 years. If it's my phone, the replacement time is much shorter (and much more affordable!).
It would not stop me from buying another Tesla. The infotainment is generally fantastic (as is the rest of the car). But CarPlay would make the music and podcast experience so much better.
zaroth
Tesla started shipping the new AMD based MCU3 at the end of 2021. MCU2 in previously Model 3s is an Intel Atom architecture.
Previously Tesla offered MCU1 to MCU2 paid upgrades for Model S/X owners. It seems unlikely that Tesla will offer anything similar for MCU2 to MCU3 but not impossible that it could be done as a 3rd party retrofit. The connectors and physical dimensions are different so it’s not trivial.
owenwil
It _is_ excellent, but it is annoyingly ignorant of integrating with phones. If you have an Android phone you can send and receive texts, but no other notifications come in and nothing else is projected there either. If you have an iPhone, it works _sometimes_ but I am rarely able to reply to messages using voice successfully. I wish it better extended into my phone, but it's largely because of Apple's rules, which I guess aren't Tesla's fault—but are a side-effect of not using carplay.
bumby
While annoying, my real gripe is what this says about their development process. If you can’t get these things right, how can I trust that you will get the safety critical software right?
JumpCrisscross
> you can’t get these things right, how can I trust that you will get the safety critical software right
Does any major car manufacturer routinely nail their infotainment systems?
bombcar
Infotainment is so horribly universally bad that Apple CarPlay and the Android equivalent came into being.
bumby
No, but other manufacturers are much more conservative about how they market their software (e.g., naming it ‘driver assist’ vs ‘autopilot’). It’s an obvious and explicit declaration that their software should not be relied on to be the main mitigation in safety-critical scenarios.
Robotbeat
Yeah… I honestly think that altho the Tesla infotainment system isn’t perfect, if we’re gonna judge the safety competency of car companies based on how good their in-house infotainment is, Tesla’s would be far and above the best (until the Apple car comes out or something…).
nickthegreek
Back in 2017, I didnt buy a toyota for the first time because they didn't offer carplay. I refuse to be stuck with a subpar experience for the 10 years I normally keep a vehicle. Absolutely ridiculous to not support both CarPlay and Android Auto.
kstrauser
That's where I'm at. Our 2016 Toyota has their horrible Entune system, and however much I like everything else about it, that thing irritates me every time I look at it.
kipchak
Might be worth swapping out the head unit. Best Buy will sell you a Sony unit with installation for $250 for example.
kstrauser
I've thought about that. I'd want one that supports the backup camera and all that. Do you know offhand if those exist at reasonable prices?
kipchak
The last time I replaced a unit was in 2012, but I think what you would be looking for is a head unit that accepts camera input , a wiring harness for the head unit to the car's wiring, a reverse camera adapter if the car doesn't use the standard yellow RCA-esque connector (apparently toyota uses several different connectors), and a interface adapter if you want to retain the use of the steering wheel controls which in total would probably be <$500 depending on parts. I remember Crutchfield's "will it fit" tools and advisors being pretty helpful.
Looking around a bit, apparently there's also a neat though slightly more expensive product called the datalink maestro rr or rr2 that does the camera and head unit interfacing part while retaining additional features.
jiggawatts
Toyota themselves have started offering upgrades of older models to support CarPlay or Android Auto. Costs about $200.
exhilaration
Good news for both of you: I rented a 2022 Corolla and it supported both CarPlay and Android Auto. Toyota gave in!
nickthegreek
Well they got about 4 years before I need another car, unfortunately for them my new minimum requirements are going to also include EV. VW id.4 is my current leader.
pc86
Not only that but wireless CarPlay. I recently picked up a '23 RAV4 and I didn't think it would matter but the difference is noticeable. At least in this model it's connected before I'm even out of my garage.
voisin
I don’t understand why this can’t be an OTA update? Maybe with slightly less functionality but why can’t it just Bluetooth CarPlay?
Tagbert
It's done over an adhoc wifi network, not bluetooth.
spike021
As far as I understand it, it still uses Bluetooth to establish the connection, but the rest is done over Wifi (someone can feel free to correct me if not).
alistairSH
That's correct. Bluetooth for initial handshake type stuff, then ad-hoc wifi for pushing the video/data stream.
mdasen
As others have said, it uses WiFi (set up via Bluetooth).
Bluetooth doesn't support the data rates necessary to deliver the data for CarPlay. As for the "maybe with slightly less functionality" would you take no display? You're basically talking about Siri Eyes Free where you'd have a button to activate Siri on your steering wheel, but wouldn't get much functionality. But I'm guessing you want the navigation to be displayed on your screen, not just a bluetooth audio connection with a Siri button.
Basically, the 1-2Mbps of Bluetooth really isn't enough to drive a display with any decent resolution and I'm guessing that real-world data rates are a bit less than spec with so much stuff in the 2.4GHz band. Microsoft notes that you need 1.5Mbps for 1024x768 and I'm guessing most car displays are better than that today (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/remote/remo...).
Maybe you'd argue that you'd take 5 FPS and semi-reliability, but I just don't think they want to implement something that's just kinda crappy. Apple doesn't want you going around saying, "wireless CarPlay is garbage." Yes, you might understand a retrofit to a car that doesn't really have the capability, but 99% of people won't. It's not that it's impossible as much as something likely to be way more pain than it's worth. Even if you want it and would be ok with the trade-off, that's not always how products work. Heck, if they did implement it and it didn't work, would you end up using tech support for it? That costs money. Would you post online where your problem-solving becomes interpreted as "Apple sucks" even if you don't mean it that way?
Worse, car manufactures might (and car dealers definitely would) start promising these models as supporting wireless CarPlay. Maybe Apple could deal with official marketing materials, but dealers will say almost anything to sell a car. People would be duped into buying these cars and then complain to Apple that their product sucks. People would be asking online "is this real wireless CarPlay or the fake kind?" The absolute headache!
You can buy an adapter that will plug into the USB port if you want wireless CarPlay: https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/27/carplay-wireless-carplay-adap.... Basically, the information goes from your phone to the adapter (via Bluetooth-setup-WiFi) and then the adapter just sends it over USB. That's way less headache for Apple and probably a better experience since it actually supports the right data rates. I haven't used one of these so you should read up if you want to buy one (or try it out and return it if it doesn't work for you), but this seems like a much better alternative than trying to jam CarPlay over Bluetooth (without WiFi).
spike021
I use one of the wireless CarPlay adapters. Works fine. Only real downside is like I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the audio does have a bit of a delay similarly to Bluetooth audio playback (as in, if I skip to next song or pause using either the screen or my steering wheel controls, it takes maybe a half second or one second longer than when I just have it plugged in for wired CarPlay).
minutillo
Well I have good news for you: you won't need to change your phone! Because they aren't supporting Android Auto either.
halfnormalform
Agreed. There is no way I would consider one without CarPlay. It has become too much a part of the driving experience.
meepmorp
This definitely rules out GM for me.
makestuff
They probably see how well Tesla/Rivian sell and they do not have carplay. I guess you are limited to what you can do with a carplay/andriod auto implementation. However, I prefer carplay vs any other (including tesla's) implementation. I'm sure there is an aspect to increased complexity as well.
AustinDev
Did you know there are CarPlay apps on the play store? That’s how I access CarPlay in my car.
dalyons
yeah this move just guaranteed i will never buy a GM car from now on!
midnitewarrior
This sounds like GM is committing brand suicide by actively making itself unappealing to Gen Z.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/01/06/gen-z-survey-says...
I love Android, but I also know how to read.
DeRock
It's not just Gen Z, 79% of all US car buyers would only buy a car with CarPlay: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/22/apple-carplay-could-be-a-tro...
GM will absolutely lose this battle. Idiotic move.
mikestew
GM will absolutely lose this battle.
They will, but not by standing firm. No, first will come the backlash, then GM will "listen to its customers" and backtrack on this.
The problem is, I've already as of this morning stopped listening to GM. I sent the link to my wife, and now we're planning which Hyundai/Kia dealer to go to first to look at Ioniq 5s and $(whatever the equivalent Kia is called). Doug in Edmonds says he has 65 of the l'il buggers. We might just drive one home this weekend, at which point GM has not only lost a sale but further convinced me to stay away from GM.
Did I mention that my father worked for GM all his career, and already pre-ordered an EV Blazer, which we said we'd take if he didn't want it at delivery? Yeah, I need to send Dad quick email about that...
Baeocystin
As someone who is quite concerned that I'm going to have to sell my Kia because insurance companies are refusing to cover them because they're so easy to steal, just... be careful which model you pick.
vel0city
Its only really the models and years where they didn't have immobilizers. He's looking at an EV, it doesn't even have a cut key for starting the car.
HeyLaughingBoy
One of the reasons I've taken Hyundai/Kia off my list is because I don't trust thieves to be aware of which models are easy to steal and which aren't. Even if they can't steal it, they can still fuck it up by trying.
p1mrx
Product idea for Hyundai/Kia: always-glowing high visibility start button
Baeocystin
A good point. Also worth mentioned that Kias are (apparently) easy to break in to. Twice over the past year my neighborhood has had a group come around and jimmy just the Kias in the neighborhood to steal stuff from inside. I don't live in a high-crime area, either. It's real problem.
CameronNemo
This is already what is being discussed.
mikestew
I think I'll pick a 2023 that doesn't have that problem, starting with the fact that it doesn't have an ignition key. :-) But thanks for the heads-up.
hexane360
Make sure you get a Hyundai/Kia with an immobilizer...
vel0city
All Hyundai/Kia EVs are push to start.
kulahan
I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in that being an absolute requirement for a car purchase. I guess it's not surprising that GM is making another stupid move though.
Moto7451
Definitely not alone. Some VP doesn’t get it and is going to find themselves in a new job elsewhere after they figure out what they just committed themself to.
I love GM cars once you remove their terrible UI and escape to CarPlay/Android Auto. The biggest issue with cars is that they rely on a touch screen for controls and the UX is awful. I now have an Audi and a Porsche and the MMI suite is Android based. This isn’t too bad but the services and mapping are far behind Apple and Google.
Marsymars
> I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in that being an absolute requirement for a car purchase.
My issue is that my #1 requirement (no functionality that requires a touchscreen to use) basically pre-empts me from having any other requirements.
unethical_ban
Mazda may come close. They have the control knob in the center.
I agree no touchscreen for AC/volume knob and some other things, but zero touchscreen at all (even for radio and menu) seems out there. Time to get a 2001 Cherokee.
Marsymars
Note that I’m not requiring zero touchscreen to be present, just that I don’t have to use the touchscreen for any functionality in the vehicle.
My 2011 car can accomplish everything perfectly well without a touchscreen while I’m wearing giant ski mitts in -30 weather; I’m not interested in a downgrade.
Robotbeat
If it’s that dominant I wonder if there needs to be some anti-trust action done with Apple?
MBCook
On what grounds? Because people like it too much?
Apple isn’t forcing anything. They don’t have exclusive contacts. Almost every car with CarPlay supports Android Auto.
Customers are just demanding it.
calciphus
Apple does restrict access to much of their platform for only Apple-based access. There's exactly one company stopping Google or anyone else from building a compatible car system that runs for both Android and ios, and that's Apple. The use of private APIs and preventing competitors from using them, to secure another market (car infotainment systems) certainly should run afoul of anticompetitive laws in spirit, even if it doesn't to the army of lobbyists and lawyers the most valuable company in the world can muster.
By comparison, nothing (not even Google) is stopping Apple from producing CarPlay for Android. All the APIs are there. They could even distribute it in the Play store.
Compare the PhoneLink capabilities between iPhone and Android, vs the macOS integration Apple offers iOS.
alistairSH
Uh, my Honda's factory radio is literally an Android device.
It happily allows CarPlay from my iPhone.
CarPlay is (very roughly) the phone pushing video to the car's head unit like it's an external monitor (with a UI tailored for the size/location/usage of a typical car display).
MBCook
Are you comparing the car infotainment OS with the CarPlay feature running on the phone?
I was not talking about the infotainment OS. No one has an Apple OS running on a car so I don’t know how they could dominate the market.
sokoloff
I have a ~$175 Android head unit that offers CarPlay functionality in one of our daily drivers. There's nothing stopping car makers or head unit/car infotainment systems makers from creating CarPlay compatibility in their devices.
taylodl
I'm honestly surprised anybody is still buying GM cars/trucks.
If you want a truck, get a Ford. They're hands-down the best in class. Or get a Toyota or Honda if you roll that way.
If you want an SUV, well, everybody is making those and GM doesn't have any standout offerings.
If you want a luxury car then there are much better options that are not only more luxurious, but more reliable, and oftentimes cheaper.
If you want reliable, cheap transportation then you're getting a KIA or Hyundai.
No matter how you slice it and dice it, the answer is never GM. (I'll concede the Corvette, they're great sports cars, but c'mon! Not many people are buying those!)
And now they're nixing CarPlay?
ambrice
The Bolt is the best EV in its price range (<30K)
taylodl
Completely anecdotal, but I know far more people owning the Nissan Leaf, and they're about as obsessive about their Leafs (Leaves?) as Tesla owners.
sokoloff
I have a LEAF and generally very much like it. The massive Achilles heel of my car is the 24kWh battery, which is slightly annoying about once a month and seriously annoying about 4x per year.
Any Bolt is a better car hands-down on battery capacity alone.
On the infotainment topic: I have the top-spec LEAF for my year and the (upgraded) infotainment unit is hot garbage, easily bested by the $175 Android touchscreen I put in my wife's car.
rdl
They are still pretty solid for vehicles like the Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon for specific uses (fleets, large family, tow vehicles) and the Sierra isn’t quite as nice as the F-150 but isn’t bad.
skunkworker
I will only rent a car if it has CarPlay. If it doesn't then I will rent another vehicle. It's not worth trying to get maps/phone setup in a car that I haven't driven and in a location that I am unfamiliar with. Where CarPlay allows me to use the same UI, apps settings et al that make it significantly easier.
Reason077
> ”GM will absolutely lose this battle. Idiotic move.”
I dunno. Lack of CarPlay support has not exactly stopped people buying Teslas.
On the other hand, Polestar uses Google’s Automotive OS for it’s infotainment system and yet also supports CarPlay. So the two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.
kitsunesoba
GM is very much not Tesla, though. They don't have Tesla's reputation of being tech-forward and somewhat competent in software UI/UX, plus I'd argue that the kind of buyers who'd consider e.g. a Bolt are those who are looking for normal cars that happen to be EVs — they're the type who'd normally be buying something like a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. They want something that's a reliable commuter, not a touchscreen gadget on wheels.
mikestew
Lack of CarPlay support has not exactly stopped people buying Teslas.
Oh, it absolutely does. I bought TSLA when it was in the double digits, and I bought lots of it (and long since sold it all). Despite scooping up capital gains with a backhoe, my wife and I never considered a Tesla simply because it didn't have CarPlay. As it applies to any car maker, CarPlay/Android Auto seems like an easy win, and if the company can't be bothered, then we'll look elsewhere.
Lack of CarPlay just doesn't stop everyone from buying one.
diebeforei485
Tesla is probably an edge-case. Tesla's navigation has excellent support for Superchargers and even pre-conditions your battery a few minutes before you arrive at the charger for more efficient charging.
There are ways to run CarPlay in the browser, and it works fine (plenty of videos about it), but it isn't enough of a value-add for people to want it.
theshrike79
Tesla's infotainment systems are in a whole another category from whatever the other manufacturers are attempting.
That being said, not supporting CarPlay (and Apple Maps) is a big factor of me not buying a Tesla.
KerrAvon
But it actually has. Lack of CarPlay support was a major reason I didn't seriously consider a Tesla for my last purchase (long before they became electric MAGA hats), and I know other people who have the same issue. Are we statistically significant? Not enough data. Maybe not. But there's definitely some money that Tesla's leaving on the table.
Volvo/Polestar has a rather nice, well-integrated implementation of CarPlay, in fact. It definitely can be done. GM is insane.
MBCook
Tesla had a very strong alternate benefit to offset the CarPlay loss.
They were basically the only non-low end electric car. Also their infotainment is reportedly pretty good, not the quality of most car makers.
GM doesn’t have a Tesla quality infotainment system, and doesn’t have a “we’re the only choice” level hook.
It won’t work for them. And it may be starting to hurt Tesla as they lose their uniqueness selling point.
Reason077
> “GM doesn’t have a Tesla quality infotainment system”
Yet.
Having poked around with a Polestar, Google’s infotainment software is actually very good.
It’s certainly in the same ballpark as Tesla’s. Clean elegant design, tight integration to the car’s systems, fast smooth performance. And has clear advantages over Tesla in some aspects (ie: ability to install 3rd-party apps).
pedalpete
Not having Android Auto or CarPlay is the thing I dislike most about Tesla. I doubt they would be more popular if they had these features, but I also doubt GM will suddenly find they have the software capabilities of Tesla.
TedDoesntTalk
“We do believe there are subscription revenue opportunities for us," Kummer said. GM Chief Executive Mary Barra is aiming for $20 billion to $25 billion in annual revenue from subscriptions by 2030.”
rblatz
Ah yes pissing off your customers because you think they’ll not just accept a worse experience, they’ll actually pay more for it. It’s a bold strategy.
stathibus
When was the last time GM was seen as a good car company?
mint2
GM is chasing the United airlines and Ryan air business model.
United expects customers to be grateful if they get involuntarily rescheduled to arrive a day and a half after the original arrival time, with not so much as a free snack ticket to compensate e even when the flight delay is of their causing, not weather, that made the original connection impossible.
MBCook
Well CarPlay (and Android Auto) do cut off revenue.
I’ll never buy the satellite radio plan for my car to stream music. Why would I? My phone already provides a cell connection.
I’ll never buy the car cell plan to stream Spotify. Why would I? My phone does that already.
I never bought the $200+ per year map updates for my last car. Why would I? I had Apple Maps on CarPlay and it updates for free.
In many ways this seems like trying to go back to 2006 when cars had some subscription stuff (maps, satellite radio) but consumers had no other choice besides going without.
Today we have another choice. Use our cell phones. And they’re often superior experiences.
This will be reversed after much shareholder pain.
alistairSH
Well CarPlay (and Android Auto) do cut off revenue.
Sure, but that revenue stream only exists in a situation where the auto manufacturer has monopoly power (over that particular service).
Prior to cell phones, they had that power over navigation and could charge a fee for updated maps (annually via DVD initially).
Attempting to subvert the market and create a monopoly here is anti-consumer, anti-competitive, and very likely a short-sighted decision that GM will regret in 5 years.
MBCook
I agree completely. They’re obviously desperate if they’re trying to turn the clock back 15 years.
fma
The other future path is that all the other OEMs follow suit because they don't want to just make money once in selling hardware - but have a recurring revenue stream.
At the moment GM (and Tesla...) is capacity constrained so no reason to appease customers any more than they need to. Not till you have excess supply. I think GM can take the hit for a year or two and see if other OEMs follow. If not they can always say "whoops, here's an OTA upgrade".
If other OEMs follow what will consumers do - besides mounting their cellphone on their dash.
lesuorac
I think you're going after United the wrong way.
It'd be like if United split Economy into say Basic Economy and Economy with the difference being Basic Economy doesn't let you pick a seat. And then in Economy, they charged to pick anything but a middle seat.
polski-g
I have been contacting federal and state legislators to get this practice banned. I urge others to do the same.
herf
They sell 2.2M cars a year, so if 5 model years of cars are involved, that's >$2200 ARPU. This makes no sense at all. It's orders of magnitude too high.
Some auto leases are about that much!
jandrese
This isn't actually a problem because Gen-Z can't afford a GM vehicle anyway. The domestic manufacturers have abandoned the affordable vehicle segment to all fight over the high margin luxury business. Even basic pickup trucks are $60k and rotting on dealer lots because the luxury vehicle market just isn't big enough for all of the people who want to be there.
decafninja
If you listen to HN, GenZ worships bicycles and public transportation and is clamoring to ban cars ASAP when the Boomers and Xers die off.
In fact I’m surprised no one has suggested banning cars on this thread yet. Someone always seems to pop up suggesting that in any thread remotely related to cars.
JKCalhoun
I smell 3rd-party business opportunity.
Never mind we can also enable the heated seats for you without your having to pay a subscription.
JeremyNT
I use Android and this move would lose me as a customer.
I want the infotainment system to be a dumb terminal for my phone, not yet another soon-to-be obsolete Android device chock full of spyware.
Android auto isn't great but it's definitely going to be better than whatever a car company is going to give me.
MBCook
They’re dropping Android Auto (from your phone) too.
sbahr001
LMAO!!!
joshstrange
I largely ignored CarPlay since it came out since my car didn't support it and I didn't feel like I was missing much vs my mounted phone but recently I borrowed a car for a few days that had CarPlay and I really enjoyed it. So much better than anything from any car manufacturer and the integration was flawless. In fact, my biggest issue was figuring out how to get back into the CarPlay UI from the car default UI when I started the car (I'm sure there was an easy way and I took a convoluted way).
For a long time I said "Just give me keyless entry/start, bluetooth, and a backup camera and I'll be happy" but now I really want CarPlay as well. The car I was driving was much nicer than mine in a number of ways (adaptive cruise control, lane keeping assist, etc, all stuff I enjoyed) but CarPlay was the one thing I'd really love to have.
tbihl
Does carplay hijack the phone pretty aggressively? I've tried the Android one a few times, but it prevents manipulation of the phone while you're riding and the phone has to ask of the head unit (and be rejected) permission to disable Bluetooth to restore the phone. Then you have to ask the driver to get, unlock, and relinquish his phone for you to accomplish the task.
It's possible I was the victim of bad default settings, as I turned the whole thing off each time after this happened.
weeblewobble
It used to work as more of a screen mirror (e.g. if the passenger changes apps on the phone the CarPlay screen would change as well) but they updated it a few years ago and now they are totally independent, except there’s only one “version” of each app so if you change the navigation destination on the phone it’ll change on the CarPlay screen.
kemayo
It used to, but a few years ago (2019 I think?) they changed so that it's a properly separate display.
The only thing you can't do is separately play audio from the phone (because the CarPlay unit is basically serving as its output while it's connected), or use your maps app to do something different while the navigation is running on the CarPlay unit (because CarPlay is just a view into the phone's apps, and so they'll both be in navigation mode).
orf
CarPlay is awesome, but I found the lack of being able to use maps very restricting. If you’re driving with someone who is co-piloting then them being able to use your phone to scout ahead for stops, restaurants etc is really useful.
We ended up using Google Maps for this while navigating with Apple Maps.
glhaynes
It's strange to me that Apple Maps is the only app I know of that works this way.
weeblewobble
Yeah or they can just use their own phone
orf
Not sure how juggling two phones, then having to manually copy addresses with potentially foreign characters between them is better.
No, just let me view the damn map on my phone and the car display?
kgermino
IME the iPhone works normally, but if you have a navigation app running a route that app turns into a list of the next steps with no options to view a map, add a stop, or manipulate anything.
It's really frustrating for us when, e.g. we have the route to the final destination on screen but the passenger wants to look for a place to stop and eat. They either have to use the car touchscreen (intended for the driver and limiting for someone who can give it full attention) or juggle multiple maps apps or phones.
ScoobleDoodle
Wow ditching both Apple CarPlay and Android Auto to target $20 billion to $25 billion in subscription revenue.
GM showing itself to be actively user hostile with this.
Owners will be paying an extra subscription cost for these apps to be in their car which are already on their phone.
Google Maps subscription free in these GM EVs only for the first 8 years. Then you pay a subscription with recurring billing.
These vehicles are no longer a consideration with this user hostile orientation. I hope this sends GM to bankruptcy round 2 and deters other car manufacturers from this nonsense.
dreamcompiler
And of course there is zero chance GM's software will be even 1/10 as easy to use as Apple's because no car manufacturer (except maybe Tesla) understands UI software or even acknowledges that it's important.
I already pay "subscriptions" for my car in the form of loan payments, insurance, and maintenance. I'm damn well not going to pay Mary Barra a monthly fee to use her crappy music service or enable my seat heaters to work.
code_witch_sam
i see it going two ways: 1. they do skeumorphic design in a way where comes out as a giant touchscreen with a bunch of static buttons like you see with physical interfaces on a car 2. very deep menus. e.g., a dozen taps to switch from radio to bluetooth
in either case, it'll have a 15hz frame rate and 800ms of lag between input and response. i expect nothing better.
meanwhile, if we had a full-on apple car, it would probably have a 120hz truemotion display, well-calibrated spatial audio, and a fully-utilized M2 Max chip
i was bearish on the idea of an apple car years ago, but now with tesla withering, i'm practically begging for it
esskay
GM are seriously deluded if they think they can get anywhere near those figures. We all know how crappy their software will be, and why on earth would they think anyone will be stupid enough to pay a subscription for it when its free on every other car.
bequanna
GM’s CEO is delusional.
With dealer lots full of new vehicle inventory, she is choosing to lay off employees and shut down production instead of make reasonable price cuts.
And to double down on that delusion, she said that GM was “…poised to capture any upside in the market in 2023.”
recursv_thnkng
I think GMs backs are against the wall here. GMs margins are already so thin on most of that inventory (aside from top trims of trucks) that they’d be basically paying customers to take the cars off the lot. On top of that they lose a bunch of money on warranty claims and have no sustainable subscription models currently. GMs strategy is basically to cut off their nose to spite their face.
nozzlegear
> GM’s move to restrict access to CarPlay and Android Auto […] will help the automaker capture more data on its customers’ driving, listening, and charging habits. It could also help inform future subscription products, as automakers across the board are seeking to generate more revenue beyond just selling cars.
Yeah no thanks. I have a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV that I absolutely love, but I will not be buying another GM vehicle if this is what they’re going to be doing.
flictonic
Yeah, one of the major perks of the EUV is the wireless Carplay.
grepfru_it
your 2023 chevy bolt euv is already streaming all of your driving parameters to GM via onstar.
the "help" they are referring to is offloading the transmission of these parameters to your wireless device vs their built-in wireless device ($$$)
nozzlegear
> your 2023 chevy bolt euv is already streaming all of your driving parameters to GM via onstar.
Is it? I’ve already turned off the Chevrolet Smart Driver or whatever it’s called, I know about that one sending data back to GM. And I canceled OnStar as soon as I purchased the vehicle, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn if it’s still siphoning data anyway.
Still, the situation would get worse for me because at least right now using CarPlay they aren’t getting all the data about which books or music I’m listening to.
grepfru_it
yes it is, i am intimately aware of that project :) onstar is always connected to the car, you cannot disable it.
tbihl
What happens if you disconnect the antenna? I recognize that they could be made integral to some other components, but at least in phones where I've removed radios and cameras, that has never been the case.
Do the cars have some sort of spite-brick functionality built in if the cars can't phone home? This is purely curiosity; I doubt that I would ever buy a GM car.
ydant
Currently there's a dedicated fuse for the OnStar system. You can pull that and the consumer facing OnStar functionality stops working (remote monitoring, etc). I assume it's really actually fully disabled by the fuse, but I can't guarantee it.
hedora
There were how to guides for older models explaining where GM hid the antenna so you could cut the leads. That might be necessary on some models.
nozzlegear
That’s disappointing to hear, thanks for the info!
foobarian
It's clear what happens next:
1. GM cars suddenly sell for $2-3k less than competition
2. Competition scrambles to catch up, implements similar shenanigans to monetize the car computer
3. No more unrestricted CarPlay
hedora
2. Competition offers car without carplay for $2K less. Both of the competitor's models monetize the car computer without google's help
(or they just stick a $20 google crapware box in the engine compartment between the battery and the motors, then call it good.)
Either way the competitor gets to charge a $2K markup for screen mirroring software.
Moto7451
My understanding is that CarPlay costs nothing other than implementation costs for car makers and head unit makers. Do you hav proof otherwise? This cost delta seems unlikely based just on CarPlay and Android Auto.
afavour
The OP is suggesting that the data/subscription revenue from GM’s NotCarplay system will allow them to sell the car at a relative loss.
dalyons
i think they mean that because of the "subscription revenue" potential of forcing people onto their propriety OS GM will be able to sell the car at a discount. Not that carplay costs more in of itself.
sitkack
And then when they don't see the revenues, they dump Android Auto and get bailed out by the people again.
saagarjha
Chevy Bolt is already cheaper than most of their competitors.
jeffbee
I would never buy a car that did not support both Android Auto and CarPlay. In fact, that is why I did not buy a Prius.
The software in a Chevy Bolt EV is unbelievably bad, taking several second to respond to presses of the power button, which means your awful experience starts from the moment you get in the car. I suggest that GM mercifully assign each and every member of their software division to literally any other non-software role, and let someone with good taste take over.
pmarreck
10 years ago I sold a Chevy Volt and bought a Tesla (I did very well that year). The UI was also terrible, then.
I see nothing has changed despite Tesla existing for over 10 years now.
Even though the Tesla doesn't support CarPlay, it doesn't have to, because its native UI is great (and responsive!)
plagiarist
I don't want my car to team up with anyone, please. I don't want an already-outdated LCD screen and proprietary operating system in there becoming obsolete even faster than the battery wears out. I wish there were better options for that.
yalogin
Isn't that the point of CarPlay and android auto? You don't have to rely on auto manufacturers to design the UI/UX for that screen and don't depend on the their OTA updates either.
esskay
Correct, guessing OP's never used it.
A good example: In 2015 I bought a tiny little Toyota Aygo (UK). It came with "Mirrorlink", it was the first car I'd ever owned that had a fancy touch screen, and it was advertised as working with iPhone's.
Now bearing in mind this was a brand new model, you can imagine how pissed off I was when I got the car, tried my phone and it didn't work, only to be told it only works with the iPhone 4 - we were on the 6S at that point.
To this day there has never been a software update. They continued selling that model with the misleading claims for about 4 years, eventually releasing a new model with carplay support. If I want carplay support added to mine, it needs the newer head unit which is around £900.
Car manufacturers are assholes. I dont want them having anything to do with the software, just make it work with carplay and android auto and then dont touch it, let the people that actually maintain their software on your phone deal with it all.
arcticbull
> I wish there were better options for that.
There is, it's Apple CarPlay and Google Carwhatever. The whole point of these are that it basically replaces the entire car infotainment setup.
UberFly
I agree. I wish there were bare-bare-bones options with a radio and ac/heat. I will use my phone otherwise.
yibg
Yea agree so much with this. I just want a car with physical knobs and buttons bluetooth to connect to my phone's audio. Have to buy ~10 year old cars to get this.
poulsbohemian
My Subaru has physical knobs AND the benefits of CarPlay. This is not a mutually exclusive issue. And both work great together.
yibg
Yea some do have this, just not common anymore. e.g. I want a GTI, but I really hate the lack of buttons. Even the steering wheel controls aren't physical buttons anymore.
kennend3
My 2023 Elantra has both google/apple support and physical knobs on both the console and steering wheel.
I can do most things without interacting with the touch screen at all.
Physical knobs and these systems def. do exist.
Arrath
Give me an Aux jack or give me dea-
Well, shit.
Fine, give me bluetooth or give me death!
semi-extrinsic
Actually, just the aux jack is perfectly fine.
I have a car with just aux, and I bought a $37 aux to bluetooth adapter [1] that works perfectly. It is a small puck shaped thing you can attach on the dash, with physical buttons for play/pause/prev/next, a good-enough microphone and you can answer/end calls with the play button.
If they release Bluetooth 6.0 or whatever with cool new features, then in a couple of years when I've bought a phone that supports this, I can just buy a new Bluetooth adapter.
[1] https://www.ebay.com/itm/185493363534?hash=item2b30441b4e:g:...
Arrath
The only time I've been in a car with aux and without bluetooth was when briefly borrowing my mom's car when I visited home, so I haven't had a need for a product like this.
Good to know they work quite well! Thank you.
realworldperson
[dead]
soylentcola
That's hot it is with my Fit. No touch screens or syncing with apps or any of that. I stick my phone in the holder, plug in power if I'll be driving for a while, and switch the stereo to aux/bluetooth.
I've had rentals with Carplay/Android Auto and they're kinda neat when they aren't a pain in the ass to set up (probably due to the cheap head units' software). But I already see nav and hear directions/music/podcasts/calls through the car's stereo.
I thought about upgrading the head unit from stock, but then I realized I was looking at a few hundred bucks at least. I don't spend enough time in my car to need a slightly bigger screen when I already have one right in front of me, sitting in its mount.
Not as if I'd rip the thing out if I got a car with Carplay/AA built=in. I just don't see it as a huge selling point.
purplecats
isnt that basically their point though
plagiarist
It seems like their point is to be able to capture more driver data, and get a nice sum from Google for making them the default (only?) map software. I would rather not have their OS at all.
minutillo
Also getting rid of Android Auto, according to the original source:
General Motors plans to phase out widely-used Apple CarPlay and Android Auto technologies that allow drivers to bypass a vehicle's infotainment systems, shifting instead to built-in infotainment systems developed with Google for future electric vehicles.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-plans-phase-apple-carplay-...
devinegan
I haven’t seen anyone mention car rentals in this thread. It is a huge bonus to have an interface, maps, music, etc you know and trust. When renting a car in the last 5 years it is basically standard to have access to CarPlay, and it is the same system many of us use in our own cars. Will rental companies buy vehicles without it, and support this move too?
gnicholas
This is a good point, but pretty much all rental companies have GM vehicles, and renters get stuck with whatever is available. I doubt renters will change their behaviors because they won't be able to effectively avoid GM vehicles. So as a result, rental companies won't change their behavior either.
It will just suck for renters a bit more than before.
lotsofpulp
Maybe, maybe not. I would pay $10 more per day for a car with CarPlay.
And I would pick Enterprise over Avis if it came down to availability of CarPlay.
gnicholas
But is there any chance that one rental company would actually be able to guarantee CarPlay availability (meaning no GM vehicles)? Seems unlikely to me.
lotsofpulp
I don’t see why not. They buy plenty of non GM cars to rent.
gnicholas
Sure, but they can't guarantee that you'll get a non-GM car, since they never know if they'll have availability in advance. Sometimes you show up and they don't have the vehicle type, or any vehicle whatsoever.
kayodelycaon
I've seen a lot of Toyotas and Kias for rentals. Not a lot of American cars.
criddell
I always travel with a phone mount in case my rental car doesn't have CarPlay.
a_vanderbilt
This is such a boneheaded decision I can't help but laugh. Everyone I know who has tried CarPlay now avoids cars that do not have it. When I bought my Miata last year, I specifically chose the trim with CarPlay capability. I will not by a car that does not have it.
amf12
> Everyone I know who has tried CarPlay now avoids cars that do not have it.
That is because you need CarPlay if you have an iPhone. With these systems, one wouldn't have to connect anything. It doesn't matter which phone a person has.
Tagbert
As a current GM Volt owner who had been considering the upcoming Blazer and Equinox this is very frustrating and basically rules out GM vehicles.
I use CarPlay daily and it is my preferred way to personalize the car. Yes, I do use Maps in CarPlay because that is where my Contacts are and that is where I am searching for businesses and use that to find directions. I don't want to switch to another system just for directions and traffic notices. I don't care about routing to chargers on a daily basis. the only comes into play on a rare road trip.
I also use CarPlay for listening to podcasts using OverCast. I absolutely don't want to give that up just to make GM happy.
snozolli
Back in 2017, I bought a new stereo for my project car. I made sure that it supported Android Open Accessory, so that I'd be able to stream high quality audio over USB. By the time I installed it, it didn't work. Why? Because Google deprecated AOA in Android 8.0, in August 2017. AOA support was removed and USB Audio UAC1 & UAC2 were added.
This left existing owners of car stereos produced from 2011 (when AOA was introduced with Android 3.1) on.
This also created a problem in that no car stereo manufacturer seems to have implemented UAC1 or UAC2 support, likely because it treats the stereo as a 'dumb' DAC, so you can't control playback using buttons on the stereo.
So, why did they remove AOA? My only guess is that it was done in order to push Android Auto. I believe that Google will just screw over existing users at the drop of a hat if a brand manager decides it might increase some market share metric.
mastercheif
It’s possible to do playback controls on UAC 2 devices.
The audio device needs to report a 2nd interface to the host for an HID device which can then send forward HID media key events like a USB keyboard.
I’d wager this is how AOA v2 handled it as well–I don’t see any mention of controls in the audio interface docs.
gnicholas
I’ll remain open minded about this, but it seems unwise to go all-in with android and abandon Apple for even the most expensive cars. Are people who buy Cadillacs (who probably own iPhones) not going to mind not having CarPlay? Or will they buy a BMW or Mercedes instead?
When you’re dropping $75k on a car, you expect it not to have any compromises.
pc86
As other commenters have said, people dismiss $75k+ cars all the times for things like "this shade of exterior paint is too light/dark" or "I don't like how the shifter feels" or "this doesn't have ambient lighting."
In that context "this car won't integrate with your phone so you'll need to rely on shoddy BT at best" is a pretty major issue.
juve1996
Not even in that price range.
I wouldn't buy a toyota I wanted simply because it didn't have Carplay and their infotainment sucked.
agloe_dreams
I think you misunderstood what they are doing. They are dropping both Carplay and Android Auto, the Android Equal of carplay. Instead they are making the car platform based on Google Automotive with the play store so you can install any app you want natively.
Their argument is that they want to make the internal software as good or better. I'll remain open minded as well..but TBH I fully expect almost all car makers to do this. No sane company would spend billions making a product and then let some other company overlay over it and make all the money.
intelekshual
They're not going all-in with Android or abandoning Apple, they're phasing out both CarPlay AND Android Auto in favor of something entirely new (that just so happens to be built by Google).
MBCook
This is that problem of Google branding.
They’re dropping Android Auto, the CarPlay equivalent.
They’re switching to Android Auto, the infotainment OS. Or is that Android Automotive? Or Android for Autos? Or Android Auto(motive?) OS, which is AAOS. Or something based on Android Open Source for cars or maybe Android Auto Open Source?
Which is not AOSP. Or Android. But kind of is.
I’m not in the Android world but I’m never sure what to call the car Android thing as opposed to the phone Android thing for use in cars.
Using Android Auto with your Android based auto. Sigh.
I give up. I’m going to go watch Apple TV on my Apple TV through the Apple made TV app.
sircastor
I worked in Infotainment for an Automotive OEM for 7 years. There were two major concepts behind the resistance to CarPlay and Android Auto. The first was branding. Not being able to control the experience that the user, especially because it was so visible of a component in the cab.
The second was (and this is anecdotal, I was not directly involved in the conversations) the way that Apple and especially Google were behaving about data. Google wanted all of the data off the Infotainment system, and a bunch of the data from the car, and they were not willing to share any of that data back with us. They wanted it all for themselves.
Over the years, my company moved because it was a customer demand. My boss when I was hired said that a person would never buy a vehicle because of the infotainment system, but it might push them over the edge.
agloe_dreams
Yup. I think the thing most people need to see at this point is that almost every car maker will follow GM at this. They would rather the Google deal where they get a cut of the pie and some control rather than the nothing they get with Carplay/AA.
MBCook
So this is an anecdote, but…
Last summer Apple said 78% of new car buyers want CarPlay. Not “or Android Auto”. CarPlay. (Note: may be US specific, don’t know)
Someone tried to look it up and ask around. And the basic idea is that new cars are more expensive than ever and going up. And that means if you’re buying a new car (as opposed to used) you have more money. And, at least in the US, that correlates highly with iPhone ownership.
If that’s true, that means that dropping CarPlay (even if you kept Android Auto, which GM isn’t) you’d be heavily annoying the vast majority of your buyers. Not 51%, but 78%.
I don’t think you can remove CarPlay and succeed at this point. Consumer demand is too strong. Now add in Android Auto diehards.
sircastor
The OEM I worked for is a luxury brand, and its customers were overwhelmingly iPhone users.
adrianmonk
On top of obsolescence and consumer choice issues, I also just don't want to configure and manage all this stuff separately in my car.
It's going to support applications like Spotify. I don't want to sit in my car and get Spotify installed, get logged in, and get it configured on my infotainment system. Same with other apps and services. Same with my Google account. I don't want to do any of that.
When I bring my phone, whatever apps I care about are already set up and ready to go. It's just easier.
And I'm someone who can figure out how. Imagine how delightful it will be for people who aren't very tech savvy.
mikestew
Pre-orders for the EV Blazer started recently. My retired GM-employed father went down to sign up, because if he didn't want it come delivery, I said we'd take it. Parents have a new ICE Blazer, and it would fit our needs well as an EV. But no CarPlay? You can keep your Blazer, Chevy, we're going to go buy a Kia.
jmull
> This change, the report explains, will help GM “capture more data on how consumers drive and charge EVs.”
> “We do believe there are subscription revenue opportunities for us,” Edward Kummer, GM’s chief digital officer, added. The company is targeting $20 billion to $25 billion in annual revenue from subscriptions by 2030.
Yech
gwbas1c
> We do believe there are subscription revenue opportunities for us ... aiming for $20 billion to $25
I really, really do not want a subscription. My Teslas' subscription appears to be at cost; I doubt Tesla is making billions off of subscription fees for maps.
But, even though Tesla's infotainment system is a lot more slick than Android Auto, I must admit that at times I'd rather use that. I still use Youtube Music, which my Teslas do not have an app for. I haven't switched to Spotify because I don't want another subscription.
(I also think there is a way to share my phone's internet with the car and avoid the subscription, but I suspect the increased data could cost almost as much as the car's subscription anyway.)
jfengel
Could you use Bluetooth to play YouTube music?
It sounds like it wouldn't be a great experience, since YouTube probably has features that Bluetooth doesn't support. But does it at least solve the main part of the problem, or does that somehow not work?
(I have a podcast app that I sometimes play through Bluetooth when I can't connect via Android Auto. The Bluetooth version is less good, but it does let me listen even when my cable is flaky.)
veilrap
Yeah, bluetooth for things like YouTube music works fine, but it's not as streamlined - e.g. you have to do searching on the phone.
MBCook
And that’s what you’ll get with the new GM EVs.
Use their system or use Bluetooth like it’s 2004.
That’s not a great choice, even if their system is great.
BLO716
After replacing the head unit in my Tacoma, I couldn't live my life w/o the modern amenities with Apple CarPlay, TBH. I drive my wife's Nissan and just so let down on the interface of early Rogues .. but at least the entire setup now comes up in a 2020 we drive. Anyway ... GM is shooting themselves in the foot on this one.
TedDoesntTalk
Which head unit did you choose? I’m looking to replace my factory default 2-din.
mikestew
I replaced a 2-DIN unit in our 2005 Scion xB probably ten years ago with a Pioneer. No need to send a link to a ten-year old product, but go to Crutchfield (if in U. S.), search on "pioneer CarPlay", and you'll get head units with CarPlay from $300 on up. Ours is one of the nicer ones (at the time), and even without CarPlay it's still a nice unit.
We've replaced the unit in the Sprinter RV with a JVC (which, from what I can gather, is just a Chinese brand that bought the name) for something like $300. We pretty much only use CarPlay in that vehicle, which is fine because the rest of the unit is pretty low-end, including the UI. But the CarPlay piece gets the job done.
dpb001
+1 for Crutchfield - have had nothing but good experiences with them for instructions and support
mikestew
I've purchased from Crutchfield, as did my father before me, for over 40 years. Not one...single...bad word to say about my experiences. They have almost always exceeded expectations, and to reiterate what you already said, their instructions and support are outstanding. Hence my "go to Crutchfield's site...".
juve1996
> Kummer also acknowledged that there are "subscription revenue opportunities." Don't be surprised if you're paying a recurring fee for certain features like you already do with some brands.
This is getting so tiresome. Not only have car prices exploded, now we have to pay for subscription features too.
I just don't know how much more of this we can take. Companies no longer innovate. They all just rent seek because there's no true competition anymore.
grepfru_it
welcome to the service economy!
Niksko
I own a pretty old car, so haven't got the bells and whistles. But I've just rented a new model Camry for the last 3 weeks, and here's my takeaways:
Android Auto is much better than Apple Carplay. Carplay was janky and the navigation stuttered. Also the layout of the on-screen UI was weird, and poorly thought out. As usual I think, Android Auto is probably designed to work ok on any size screen and gracefully degrade. Carplay is probably impeccable on a few cars and crap on the rest (like this Camry).
But my pain point is that it would be easy not to notice that this exists. My mum for example has a very new car, I'm sure it supports Android Auto, I'd be shocked if she knew it exists. GM could make plenty of money from people who don't know Android Auto/Carplay exists (or from those that prefer to not need a phone), while still supporting Auto/Carplay for those that want it.
Operyl
The lag on Carplay definitely seems to be the infotainment system, I have a new Corolla and have noticed similar issues (even compared to previous versions). The Mazda implementation is smooth and pretty high framerate.
spike021
I've used Carplay in a few cars. Mine doesn't even have it built-in, I swapped in an aftermarket Pioneer headunit that has Carplay.
It's worked fine with various sizes of screen.
As far as lag, there's some lag when using wireless Carplay mostly IME for audio playback, basically akin to the same delay when using Bluetooth.
I've never had nav issues with Apple Maps, but since iOS 16 or so, Google Maps frequently has issues where it stops updating my current location and gets stuck until I force-quit the app and re-open it, so that's a bummer.
Otherwise it's been fine. Handy the time I had to use a Kia rental and as soon as my phone was paired to it it was like my own personal car.
onewheeltom
Android Auto = uber janky
nkotov
What a stupid move. Every infotainment system I used that didn't have CarPlay has been horrible. Either it was incredibly slow or hard to use. Going into a rental with CarPlay has always been awesome. Everything you need is right where you want it, no matter the vehicle. The only closest to being good has been Tesla.
RC_ITR
> This change, the report explains, will help GM “capture more data on how consumers drive and charge EVs.”
Oh cool, a company reducing features so they can collect more data on me.
midnitewarrior
Considering how few drivers they will have in their cars, they can just capture this data with pen and paper manually.
JohnBooty
This is so obviously user-unfriendly. All I can guess here is that GM is hoping to slip it past potential purchasers.
There is a lot of information to digest when buying a car, particularly EVs. If the salesperson says "oh yeah, you can just plug your iphone in" I can see a certain % of people assuming it has actual CarPlay support and not bothering to demo that feature. It's the kind of thing you might not notice until after you've actually brought the car home.
People overwhelmingly don't want another device to manage. This is overwhelmingly true for both tech-savvy types and folks who are allergic to tech.
They are comfortable with their phones and don't go anywhere without them and they would just like the info screen on their car to be a relatively dumb display device for their phones.
esskay
Car manufacturers have proven they have zero ability to make any kind of in car entertainment system with software that isn't a giant pile of crap, a pile of crap which they abandon and never update.
GM is committing suicide here, what an idiotic move.
flyingcircus3
I use a separate mp3 player connected over Bluetooth in the car. I still get album art and all necessary controls on the cars touchscreen.
I've used maps/navigation with Android Auto, but really, it's the audio directions that are the killer app, not a visual map. So I usually just set it up on my phone, and not my cars screen.
What else is there to do on a car's touchscreen? Or are we just in the novelty phase of this technology? I'll admit it was a deciding factor in my latest car purchase. But the novelty has worn off, and if it would have been an optional feature with an additional cost, I would certainly have buyer's remorse.
doctornoble
This really seems like the opposite direction auto manufacturers should be taking. Lean in hard to a common API design for displays and negotiate with Apple/Google on theming (like Apple Watch where some companies get custom watch faces), but leave the UX to Google/Apple
I was uninterested in CarPlay until my last car had it. Now it’s a requirement for any car purchase. Similarly I was uninterested in wireless CarPlay (how hard is it to connect a Lightning cable) until my next car had it. I’d be a little more lenient on no wireless, but it is really convenient.
CharlesW
> This really seems like the opposite direction auto manufacturers should be taking.
For sure. GM is operating based on fear here — just as carriers were terrified of being "dumb pipes", vehicle makers are terrified of being "dumb boxes". Somehow GM is under the delusion that Google is their friend, and that alienating Apple users won't impact vehicle buying decisions. GM will learn the hard way that both are incorrect.
smoldesu
Maybe we ought to respect user choice more than the greedy desires of our hardware vendors. Just a thought?
viro
That's a huge mistake. I shit you not when I say CarPlay was the main thing I looked when I bought my last car.
eksx
Ditto. I also am shopping for a new car just for the sole purpose of having wireless CarPlay. I put over 100k miles on my car in 3 years so I would consider myself in the well above average tier for car usage. Apple CarPlay has improved the driving experience considerably.
DemiGuru
Very shortsighted IMHO. By keeping both they will be broadening the appeal of their cars to a larger segment of the market. All in favor of a subscription model??
"Buyers of GM EVs with the new systems will get access to Google Maps and Google Assistant, a voice command system, at no extra cost for eight years, GM said. GM said the future infotainment systems will offer applications such as Spotify's music service, Audible and other services that many drivers now access via smartphones"
criddell
I think they would argue the shortsighted plan would be to stick with CarPlay and Android Auto because they are here now and work. The long term plan is to control in-car hardware/software and find ways to generate revenue from it.
Maybe the real money is in services?
It's possible they may sell fewer cars, but make more money overall. The article says they think they can generate $20-$25 billion of subscription revenue by 2030. That's the revenue from about 400,000 vehicles. If their vehicle sales drop by less than 17%, they win.
danaris
This is the kind of user-hostile, maximum-profit-at-all-costs thinking that is absolutely ruining various aspects of our society, economy, etc. Just like streaming services, where it's absolutely clear that people are happy to pay a reasonable monthly subscription for on-demand access to all the shows they like (see: Netflix several years ago), but the content owners are just horrified at the thought that they don't get both every drop of revenue they can possibly squeeze out of every customer, and absolute iron-clad control of the experience from beginning to end.
I don't care if it's "rational" behavior for the business; it's disgusting and shouldn't be allowed. The good of society should always come before increasing profits even higher for already-massive, already-highly-profitable companies.
aaronbrethorst
Convince me to never buy a GM vehicle with this one weird trick.
xnx
I'm guessing GM made the calculation that the money they were getting from Google to do this was greater than the money they would lose in car sales to iPhone owners.
exabrial
> GM Chief Executive Mary Barra is aiming for $20 billion to $25 billion in annual revenue from subscriptions by 2030.
Well I guess this will be my last GM vehicle!
jedberg
Is the Android Auto interface part of Android open source? If it is, what stops Apple from making CarPlay compatible with Android Auto protocols?
agloe_dreams
GM is killing Both carplay and AA, everyone is confused all over the place and reporting is awful.
The new system runs off "Google Automotive Services" (AKA: GAS - Native Google Android on the car's computer hardware) complete with the Play Store. Apple could always build iMessage and Apple Maps for GAS.
jedberg
That actually makes a lot more sense. Unfortunate that it's going that way though. Thanks for the info.
flax
The same thing that stops Apple from making their phones USB-C compatible, or iMessage RCS compatible, or making the app store back-end not require xCode and a mac merely to upload a file. They are a monopoly, and they are trying to coerce consumers to give them more money.
nerdjon
I really hope this isn't a start of a trend, but I have to wonder if the recent CarPlay taking over the entire car thing that Apple announced is kinda related?
Every once in a while I end up renting a car that doesn't have CarPlay support and it sucks. CarPlay is great and it does what I need (music and directions, with the occasional message) while also keeping everything in sync with my phone.
agloe_dreams
I think this is directly related, furthermore, I think no company should take Apple's deal. "You build the car and screens...we use them to make money/get data instead of you". There's a reason CarPlay licensing is free. I bet some partners backed out of the next-gen carplay too.
There's a good argument that Apple is the bad guy here too: Their restriction of iMessage APIs and App-data over Bluetooth makes Carplay (and in a like way, the Apple Watch) the only real choice for iPhone owners. One could say they are taking the whole industry over the coals with this lockout which allows them to have people pay them app store subscriptions. There is a running line that "Apple believes they own every dollar that is spent on your iPhone", with carplay, it's every dollar in your car too.
banana_giraffe
Related, I suppose, but indirectly. From elsewhere:
> GM said it expects its in-car subscription services to generate nearly $2 billion in revenue this year and will reach as high as $25 billion by the end of the decade
I assume they view Carplay/Android Auto as a barrier to their subscription plans. Why would I pay for Map Updates, or Sirius subscription or whatever if I can just plug my phone in?
nerdjon
That number seems insanely high, are people really going to pay for the privilege of getting maps when they can get them for free on their phone?
I would think a lot of people would just get a phone holder for their car, or just choose another car.
I mean GPS's charging for map updates hasn't been mainstream for 10ish years?
banana_giraffe
I agree with you, I honestly don't know what they expect people to pay for:
> Alan Wexler [...] indicated that consumers were willing to pay up to $135 per month on services for their vehicles
I'm sure they're working at this backwards, in that there's this bucket of money sitting there, and how to charge $135/mo to get at it.
thesandlord
Looks like they will offer some sort of customized Android Automotive, which is awesome, but restrict casting from your phone?
Seems really short sighted, I feel most folks would use the built-in stuff but having the option to cast from a phone is a must have escape hatch.
Wireless CarPlay on our Bolt EV is one of the best features, sad to see that go.
mikestew
Pre-orders for the EV Blazer started recently. My retired GM-employed father went down to sign up, because if he didn't want it come delivery, I said we'd take it. Parents have a new ICE Blazer, and it would fit our needs well as an EV.
But no CarPlay? You can keep your Blazer, Chevy, we're going to go buy a Kia.
dopeboy
CarPlay is a borderline need-to-have for me if I were to buy a car. Hope Google's version is just as good...
rdl
This isn’t existential for buying a GM product (I could probably just replace the head unit?), but for a rental, I’ll have to avoid GM EVs. Being able to rent basically any car on the lot and just have CarPlay work, with the only question being USB A, USB C, or wireless, is pretty nice today.
qgin
The problem is a lot of these cars don't have head units. They just have all sorts of irregular LCD screens built in to the dash.
mabbo
I used to drive rental cars a lot for work and loved Chevy and GM's integration with Android auto. They just did it really well. I'd specifically try to get one of their vehicles because of that.
I guess I won't have to look out for them in the future.
malshe
The real reason for this is at the end of the article:
"We do believe there are subscription revenue opportunities for us," Kummer said. GM Chief Executive Mary Barra is aiming for $20 billion to $25 billion in annual revenue from subscriptions by 2030.
etempleton
It is like they want to lose customers. Even Teslas, which have a good UX that people like, still gets people complaining they wish it had CarPlay or Android Auto. It is just a nice extension of your phone that costs automakers basically nothing to implement. If they think they are going to create their own app stores people buy apps and subscriptions from they are delusional.
We bought a Toyota recently that will require us to pay to use the app if we want to keep using remote start. The app does nothing, but for some reason remote start is locked behind the subscription. I won’t be paying for it.
ticklemyelmo
The free subscription on my 2021 Toyota expired 16 months ago. Remote start still works. (Well, the fob button sequence is as finicky and inconsistent as it always was, but it does work.) I think Toyota changed their minds on that feature after the bad press about it hit.
etempleton
It seems to be back into effect as I have to have an active subscription for it to function. I guess they are giving it another go with their latest vehicles.
mgdev
I plan to phase GM out of my consideration set for all new purchases, with GM's help.
danpalmer
Dropping CarPlay and Android Auto, in favour of Android Automotive… which is different from Android Auto.
More seriously, Automotive is basically the car running Android, rather than running some custom firmware that can receive the “mirror” content from CarPlay/Auto. Because this means it’ll be running a full app platform, I wonder if CarPlay/Auto could be implemented on top of Automotive with relative ease. It may even be possible for Apple to publish a CarPlay app on the Play Store for example.
MishaalRahman
>I wonder if CarPlay/Auto could be implemented on top of Automotive with relative ease.
It can, and already has. Google offers an official Android Auto Receiver app for Android Automotive that allows for wired/wireless Android Auto projection onto an AAOS head unit. (It requires build integration so it can't just be installed from Google Play, but it's an option for OEMs.)
As for CarPlay, there's no official integration package from Apple, but it can be done, as demonstrated by Polestar.
bluecalm
Quick Google search tells me there are currently 65 million GM vehicles on the roads in US. Let's say that can add 25 million new ones till 2030 which sounds very optimistic for them. To have their forecast of the subscription revenue materialize they would need to charge 1000$ per car per year or about 80$/month.
That seems crazy to me. People might be coming to terms with subscription but 80$/month is an expensive one and you also need to convince them to pay that for a car - not excatly a natural market for it.
Aren't they way too optimistic on this one?
kotaKat
The base OnStar plan to use Google Built In is $25/mo, to get emergency crash response that plan doubles to $50/mo.
So no, they're right in line with right how they want to gouge customers.
TedDoesntTalk
When your car payment is $400/month, what’s another $80? /s
mrobins
This is such blatant rent-seeking nonsense and I think it will backfire.
These articles always call out Tesla as a success but clearly they have a cult following and have other innovations. Personally, lack of CarPlay is the reason I hate driving Teslas because if you’re not used to it the UI is abysmal.
Sorry but the Buick brand just doesn’t scream cutting edge UI to me.
dang
Url changed from https://9to5mac.com/2023/03/31/gm-carplay-support-ev/, which points to this.
Submitters: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sli
> Buyers of GM EVs with the new systems will get access to Google Maps and Google Assistant, a voice command system, at no extra cost for eight years, GM said.
The lede is buried as usual.
stirlo
So what’s currently free on both CarPlay and Android auto will be chargeable after 8 years?
I’m buying another brand that doesn’t pull this shit.
agloe_dreams
These articles are paraphrasing all over the place. This line is about 8 years of free cellular data, not app "Access". Point still stands but yeah.
mig39
GM has no other way to distinguish itself from the others.
If it came down to choosing between a GM without CarPlay and a Ford or Toyota with CarPlay, I wouldn't choose a GM.
jonahhorowitz
GM is probably ignoring that these products exist too. I haven't bought one, but I've been tempted to put one in my 2008 Civic. I'm sure they'll be even better and cheaper in a couple years.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204267444756?hash=item2f8f49da14:g:...
TedDoesntTalk
This is cool! I only wish it hooked into the car speakers.
kotaKat
That's the neat part, they have aux out. ;)
jonahhorowitz
It does - it connects over AUX or BT.
justapassenger
If it's fully integrated android automotive, and it just works, for free - that's fine with me, even tho I'm an iPhone user. As long as I get my apps - I don't care.
But I'm 100% sure it won't be like that. I'm also 100% sure, the reason they plan to do it, is to force people into OnStar subscription for data. I'm not paying $35+ per month when I have phone in my pocket.
agloe_dreams
They are offering 8 years free data.
justapassenger
Source? Article doesn't mention that.
agloe_dreams
https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/31/23664814/gm-ev-restrict-a... The Verge has the actual document from GM, it is the last line.
matty22
I keep hoping and wishing that Rivian will add CarPlay support to the R1T. It's the only electric pickup truck that I'm remotely interested in right now, but no CarPlay is an absolute non-starter. It disqualifies that truck as a purchasing option for me (and I suspect many others). For now, I'll keep saving and waiting.
ishvanl
Honestly I'm not surprised to hear GM doing something this ridiculous. GM's primary business has been finding new footguns for itself since at least the 1980s; at this point, the only thing going for the company is that their cars are American made (sometimes), and even the beneficial effects of that are debatable at best.
hkatx
I have an iphone and appreciate carplay in my car. Tesla doesn't support Apple Car play and is fairly popular.
Most buyers wouldn't notice right away at least during the test drive and the absence of carplay will be noticed later in their ownership experience. By then the loss of payment/friction in changing cars will keep them tied to their purchase.
BLO716
I think GM (and most car manufacturers) miss out on the partnerships with such players like Apple and Google entirely to extend their OS reach and ubiquity. The SYNERGY could be a billion dollar package add-on. What also puzzles me was why Tesla never bought Apple or vis versa. The UI/UX fast-track in such an endeavor would be mind boggling.
yalogin
Obviously they entered into an exclusive partnership like this with Google after a lot of thought. I cannot imagine what google gave them for that. The main question for me is, how is it benefitting Google? Does GM sell that many cars? Do the users data on their drives worth that much to them? Or is it just a play to make Apple appear weaker?
scarface74
Just a little story:
Back in 2006, Apple went to Verizon and wanted certain concessions from them for the iPhone - including no third party crapware. Verizon refused. Apple went to their competitor AT&T who did accept Apple’s demands.
Verizon started losing customers and they came crawling back yo Apple.
Apple did the same in other countries with the same results.
calvinmorrison
For the love of open standards, just stop!
I love my car, it has a 1 din radio. Many years ago I replaced the tape deck with a unit that had a CD player. A few years after that, I had a 3.5mm aux jack and even a USB charger for my iPod Classic. After that - bluetooth baby. It works like a dream and it was like 30 bucks at walmart.
squishy47
I wouldn't even consider a car that doesn't support carplay. i've not seen an infotainment system in YT car reviews that are not laggy AF (except tesla and rivian obv). CBA with them, looking forward to carplay 2.
gurumeditations
Data collection and subscription charging…
GenerWork
Glad that they're making these announcements ahead of time so I know not to consider a GM vehicle.
amanaplanacanal
My problem with this is: for how many years will they guarantee updates? I already have a TV with built in Google software where half the apps don't work because they stopped updating it years ago. Now imagine this is your car instead.
bastardoperator
I love my yukon, but I'm not buying anything with google inside of it or anything without carplay. This seems like a miscalculation because GM sells some expensive vehicles, and people with lots of money in my limited experience have iphones.
spacedcowboy
shrug I guess that narrows the choice of what car to get in future. Sayonara GM.
nashashmi
Everyone here is pessimistic about the experience. And they have a right to be. Car manufacturers are not good at consumer software. They are only good at moving buttons here and there. And the innovators behind what the buttons do have always been a different company.
But look at the positive end: having a bland one screen for interfacing with your phone is ridiculous. And car manufacturers want to move those "buttons" around that interface with your phone. Like something that integrates with maps. And the podcast and radio. And the messaging and calling. Something that can move the map display to right above the steering wheel. Something that can move the messaging and video to windshield. And something that can let me switch sources for podcast and radio.
I don't think they will be able to pull it off. But I do hope they try.
paxys
More auto manufacturers are doing this, because they want to push monthly subscriptions for connected services. Plugging in your phone gets around that and gives you a way better experience.
classified
Will Google display ads in your car or just hoover up all your data?
sergiomattei
Bone headed move. People pay top dollar to retrofit CarPlay stereos into older cars.
I did it to my Nissan Sentra 2011, no regrets. Such a value add. GM deserves whatever they get for this move.
tristor
I would never buy a new vehicle without CarPlay. This is a move so stupid, even knowing GM, I’m shocked they would do this. Anyone in the US that isn’t broke or opposing Apple for ideological reasons is all-in on the Apple ecosystem because it’s the only tech ecosystem that actually works and half-ass respects the user.
A recent survey had 87% of people between 14-25 in the US own iPhones and nearly 80% of those who made over median income own iPhones.
Who does GM think is buying new vehicles when economy car base prices are pushing $30k? Someone with a free government Android phone is not dropping $30k+ on a new car.
I can’t wait to see GM go out of business from this sheer stupidity.
Overtonwindow
It's a shame there is not one universal automotive entertainment standard that can read and interpret from any device following that standard.
kevin_thibedeau
You'd think the EU would force the industry to come up with a standard.
matt3210
No CarPlay is a deal breaker for me. My iPhone GPS is where all my waypoints are and operating Apple Music from the dash is convenient
jaywalk
"This is an incredibly lame and sucky decision for a number of different reasons."
The state of "journalism" in 2023.
sitkack
Not only will GM look bad, but the press when they dump Android Auto will see a cliff in Android marketshare.
BLO716
Way to cast aside the population most likely to buy your EV. I guess they aren't looking at their data.
rubicon33
Wireless charging and Apple Car Play are two deal breakers for my next car. Idiotic move from GM.
michael9k
Another reason not to buy a GM
freediverx
Is there a lot of crossover appeal between fans of Apple products and GM cars?
hulitu
Android Auto is crap. It only works with some Google allowed apps.
jeffbee
They are not allowing Android Auto, either. And I don't see how your complaint differentiates Apple from Google. CarPlay also only works with specialized and approved apps.
steponlego
Who would want Google in their car? This is a privacy nightmare.
jrochkind1
Honestly, just give me a 3.5mm analog input and call it a day.
peoplearepeople
Are they trying to ruin their sales to rental car companies?
georgelyon
Something fitting about this story being reported on yahoo.
jdmg94
Yet another reason not to buy a car from General Motors
daviddever23box
April Fools joke, or simply corporate foolishness?
puma_ambit
Wow, yeah not gonna buy that new GMC Yukon now.
outside1234
So I guess I'm going to get a Ford then
gumby
No problem, I don’t need a GM car either.
option
not having Apple Carplay is one of the main reasons I plan to ditch my Tesla MYP. so, yeah, way to go GM
constantlm
This seems incredibly short-sighted.
knodi
Just make it optional feature, duh!!
sigmonsays
who really wants google in your car with you tracking every move?
C'mon, this is getting pretty awful
rideontime
Did Google pay for this?
de6u99er
I hate this trend!
Animats
Do you have to have a Google account to use the car?
kotaKat
Actually... sorta. The new infotainment system ("Google Built-In") basically dictates you have to use it or you don't get to use all the features as they were intended.
To get an idea of what to expect, see Volvo's GBI page - https://www.volvocars.com/intl/v/connectivity/infotainment-p...
"You can still drive the car and use Google Assistant and Google Maps without a Google Account. However, if you’re offline or signed out, some apps and features may not be available. Google Play requires a logged in Google Account whereas Google Assistant and Google Maps will not be as personalised in the signed-out experience."
auxfil
More capturing of personal data and more shoving subscriptions down our throats. Nope. Sod off GM.
Haga
[dead]
vondur
I won't buy a car without CarPlay integration. Very shortsighted move from GM here.
dboreham
Quite odd that we decide which $80,000 car to buy based on what remote display server protocol it supports.
kstrauser
If I had $80,000 to spend on a car, "works with stuff I already own and use" would definitely be a litmus test for me.
alexwasserman
If I'm spending <$8,000 (picking $8K as 10% of your initial number) on a car I know I'm compromising on everything and buying the car for a very specific reason. There's no room for negotiation - you take what you get at that price point.
If I'm spending $80,000 on a car it better be perfect in every way, and every little bit of it matters because I don't want to be disappointed in any part of it. I would hate getting into my $80,000 car every day and knowing that I wasn't getting what I wanted from it.
slt2021
People who drop 80k on a car, dont have time nor energy to learn and fiddle with new car UI. Once you get used to CarPlay you aint coming back, since it is so integrated with the phone UX
eddieroger
It's been said elsewhere as well, but if one is willing to spend that much on a car, or can at all, they usually want exactly what they want beyond just the UI.
Regardless of whether you prefer Apple or Google, the benefit of phone projection is that you can get a good experience with relatively low specs from the head unit because the heavy lifting is done by the phone which can be upgraded independently of the car.
Even powered by Google, the infotainment system is going to age like milk since you’ll be locked into hardware that will be midrange at best, several years old by the time it’s released with no upgrade path.
The only group of consumers that it could possibly benefit is people who want an EV but don’t use a smartphone and thus can’t take advantage of AA or CarPlay. I have a feeling that Venn Diagram is just two independent circles.
This is purely so GM can add subscriptions and harvest more data. Heaven forbid they make their money just selling a car.