Mozilla stops Firefox fullscreen VPN ads after user outrage
Comments
dang
sandyarmstrong
I noticed this yesterday. I've been using Mozilla/Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox as my primary browser for over 20 years. They've made some questionable calls, sure, but most of the recent things that have bothered people (like Pocket integration) haven't really irked me.
This is the first time where I got a visceral feeling that maybe this isn't the browser I knew and loved anymore. It's not like I'm uninstalling and switching to something else, but I do feel bummed out.
ilikepi
Did you miss the episode in 2017 in which they used an internal control to force the installation of an add-on as part of a promotion for a television show?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15941302
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15940144
I feel similarly to you...long-time user, bummed out by stuff like this. Sometimes it feels like Firefox would be a lot better off without Mozilla occasionally making deals like this.
jeroenhd
The execution was definitely terrible, but "browser company ships promotional easter egg" isn't that bad as "browser company inserts ads into browsing experience" in my opinion. These ads are why Windows 10+ has become a trash fire despite all the technical improvements made to Windows.
Mozilla were stupid enough to try and sneak this Roboto stuff in, probably as part of the requirements or intentions of the ad campaign, rather than be transparent about it. Stupidity rather than malice.
The VPN ad is a targeted decision comingffrom within the non-profit. I sort of get it, Mozilla is desperate for income because Google is keeping them afloat, barely anyone who donates cares about anything but the browser, and the for-profit ventures aren't gaining much success.
0cf8612b2e1e
I read a conspiracy that Google has paid off Mozilla management to specifically sabotage the browser development. Actions like this make it hard to dispute the moves that frequently seem deliberately anti-user.
SilasX
(Not the OP.) Nope, and I also didn't miss the torrent of HNers saying "what's the problem, you already trust them to provide the software, you should trust anything they want to send along with it."
the_duke
Firefox at least exposes an endless amount of toggles to tweak pretty much every behaviour the browser has.
This is includes settings for removing or disabling all the integration with Mozilla services and their ads.
See for example: https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js
justsomehnguy
FF removed the ability to delete the sites from MRU list in the address bar, the ability which it had since ages. It was removed when moved to Photon, 2017. They finally would add it back in FF 113, so 2023. Six / Fucking / Years
warkdarrior
Yes, but the default should be to show no ads. If I want ads, I'll use Chrome or Edge with no ad blocker.
xuancanh
The downturn of Firefox began a long time ago when Brendan Eich was forced to leave Mozilla in 2014. I highly recommend giving Brave browser a try, as Brendan Eich now serves as its CEO.
ionioniodfngio
It's not that I like Firefox so much as that all the competition is unusable. Firefox has gone downhill, but at least it's extensible enough that I can largely reverse the decay.
JohnFen
Firefox is much less configurable than it used to be, though. I can no longer fix all of the stuff in it that needs fixing.
reaperducer
It's not that I like Firefox so much as that all the competition is unusable.
I'm inching closer to using the Duck browser full-time. If you haven't tried it, give it a shot to see if it works for you.
It's not as customizable as Chrome or Firefox, but it gets the job done if you don't do a lot of heavy lifting with your browser.
Right now, I'm 60% Safari, 10% Firefox, and 30% Duck. And I use Firefox less and less lately.
JohnFen
I switched away from Firefox a couple of years ago for a number of reasons that can be collectively summarized as "Firefox no longer meets my needs".
But as a Firefox user from the very beginning, I still keep tabs on it, hoping that it will improve enough for me to return to it. Things like this, however, strongly indicate to me that Firefox is just lost and will never find its way back.
intelVISA
Same boat, used it since Win XP but they've been bleeding out badly since Eich left with no signs of recovery.
I do want to like Brave, as it is Firefox II in spirit, but the combo of web3 crap, Chromium and the fact that it still pings outbound (with it all 'off') puts me off entirely.
Maybe it's time for me to fork KHTML and do what needs to be done.
rwmj
The Android version of Firefox recently started promoting commercial bookmarks on the home screen, another case where it seems they've lost the plot.
dabluecaboose
A while back I got a push notification on my Android device to some preachy blogpost about Facebook being bad politically
I don't want my browser to be a vector from which you push your blogs, Mozilla. I want a browser that isn't Chrome
triyambakam
I recently switched to Brave
stjohnswarts
As long as they make it easy to turn off, I simply don't care. I also don't understand others acting like it's the end of the world. Like this is the equivalent of your most beloved partner turning out to be a complete hoax. Give me a break. If anyone is looking for a nice "new tab" filler I highly suggest the "tabbliss" plugin.
wlesieutre
Makes you wonder how someone thought this was a good idea in a browser that was an early pioneer of popup blockers. Imagine if Firefox in the 2000's had seen popup ads and said "Yeah let's get in on that action!"
At least it was a small scale experiment and not something that rolled out to the whole install base, I use Firefox on a couple of computers and didn't see it myself. But should you really need user feedback to know that inserting an overlay that looks like in-page ad content is a bad idea?
logdap
Mozilla management are malicious snakes. This isn't the first time they've tried something like this and it won't be the last. Each time they issue noncommittally apologies, if you can call them that, but it keeps on happening. They're testing the water for even more ads in Firefox, trying to normalize this until people stop complaining. Keep the heat on them, don't give them an inch or they'll take a mile.
weinzierl
If something like this happens once it could be a slip, but we've been there again and again. Mozilla is testing how far it can go only backpedaling when there is resistance. I don't trust them a bit and would switch Browser anytime if there was a visble alternative.
sharess
This ad overlay shows such a fundamental lack of understanding on what Firefox was built on that the people who greenlighted this need to go immediately.
They are completely out of their depth and not fit for their job.
MiddleEndian
Microsoft basically got in on this with a lot of their recent Windows stuff. With Windows 7, suddenly you saw people's PCs were no longer full of adware. Then by 8 or 10, Microsoft thought, "Wait, people put up with adware for decades, let's get on that and put it into the OS ourselves."
JKCalhoun
Makes me wonder why so much of Corporate America make decisions based on "What's the outrage threshold for our users and how can we sneak up close to it?"
ChuckNorris89
>Makes you wonder how someone thought this was a good idea in a browser that was an early pioneer of popup blockers.
Two reasons: clueless management who chases short term returns, and a rabid fanbase that will constantly make excuses for them no matter how much they decline, because "at least they're not Google/Microsoft"
AlexandrB
I think something not getting enough attention is the design of the popup itself. It is chock-full of dark patterns (different sized click targets, "not now" dismiss action instead of "No") and doesn't include any way to disable similar "messages" in the future.
It's concerning that someone at Mozilla designed this and didn't see any problem with foisting these dark patterns on their users. This is the kind of user-hostile design I expected from Microsoft Edge not Firefox, which I thought was trying to be a user-respecting alternative.
slater
Someone needs to make a "Firefox Marketing Department Greatest Hits" page; this isn't the first time, by far, they've tried to shoe-horn some absolutely user-hostile garbage into some release, followed by the usual "we will do better" back-pedalling non-apology
netsharc
Yeah, something similar to "Killed by Google". Maybe we need a template on Github for such sites to catalog bullshit, lord knows there's a lot of categories of bullshit we can catalog...
Oh actually they do have their source available: https://github.com/codyogden/killedbygoogle
grey_earthling
arewefishyyet.com is available.
i2cmaster
It's really a wonder Mozilla keeps going. They've absolutely lost it.
ilyt
"But freedom and openness!"
kramerger
"The advertisement boosts Mozilla VPN, a paid open-source VPN service that constitutes a crucial revenue source for the not-for-profit company."
In 2021, Mozilla CEO received $5M in compensation. I don't really consider them a non-profit.
uo21tp5hoyg
It's intentionally confusing but "not-for-profit" and "non-profit" are two very different things and it seems the article gets them confused.
djbusby
Wish my non-profit paid like that.
sounds
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35829283
Mozilla's primary sources of revenue are for setting the default search engine. $500 Million.
InCityDreams
>"We’re continuously working to understand the best ways to communicate with people who use Firefox. Ultimately, we accomplished the exact opposite of what we intended in this experiment and quickly rolled the experience back.
What absolute lies. All they would have to do is a quick search on HN and boom - enough user input to last quite some time. In my country (perhaps others), the best way to "continuously work[ing] to understand the best ways to communicate with people who use Firefox." would be to actually communicate with people... "Ultimately, we accomplished the exact opposite of what we intended in this experiment" No, you got called out for trying to cheat people.
pwdisswordfishc
> The most recent relevant report on Mozilla’s bug tracking platform received the "RESOLVED WORKSFORME" tag
Typical Mozilla. At this point I don’t know why they even allow bug submissions from the public at all.
slater
Now changed from WORKSFORME to FIXED
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1835158
Nothing to see here, folks!
(until marketing comes up with its next blunder)
zuprau
This isn’t a bug, so the resolution is expected. What I don’t understand is how Mozilla thought this would work out.
horeszko
I suppose now is a good time to ask if there are any good _non-corporate_ open source browsers out there?
Seems to me that businesses operate within an incentive structure that will always encourage them to take maximum advantage of users and do anti-user things no matter what their original goals were. The non-corporate part is key imo (see Canonical, Mozilla now etc.)
LeoPanthera
On KDE, Falkon.
On Gnome, "Web".
On macOS, Safari may not pass your "non-corporate" requirement, but it's spiritually non-corporate, and functionally "just a browser". It's also wicked fast and extremely light on your resources.
On many platforms, "ungoogled-chromium" may satisfy your needs. It's under the name "eloston-chromium" in many repos. https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium
abnercoimbre
We're not getting anywhere without the social support for it. Virtually all tech conferences are corporate-funded, for example, so they're not going to praise independent browsers. Conversations get stifled.
Self-plug but my indie conferences [0] promote software that respect the user's quality of experience. One of my favorite presentations that we've featured is SerenityOS (including their open-source browser) which made headlines at the time. [1]
bombcar
You have to keep moving; Brave has been relatively good to me for now but I assume it will slump into the melt at some point.
hcal
Gnome-Web if you're on linux and it is fine. It is a little light on features, but it does the basics. Falkon is another for the QT/KDE crowd. There are several forks of chrome and firefox, if that's your thing.
I'm trying to ungoogle and switched to Vivaldi without enough research. Its a really nice browser and I really like the community around it (like their Mastodon service), but I basically jumped from one corporation's browser to another.
bornfreddy
I love Firefox but starting to hate Mozilla. How many more tricks like that do they have in store for us?
It's as if someone there is determined to undermine this browser's reputation.
slig
It's not like their main competitor pays them half a billion a year.
ekianjo
They always feign being sorry about doing things like that, but come back a few months later with the same bullshit over and over again, like a wife-beater.
They are completely pathetic and dysfunctional as an organization.
jaredandrews
Wow, I experienced this yesterday while I was absentmindedly using my computer.... I assumed I had clicked something without realizing it. The idea that it was an intentional pop up didn't even enter my head.
AlexandrB
For me it hit as a double-whammy. I tried opening a new tab, but had to stop what I was doing to restart Firefox instead because of a Snap[1] update, then I got this immediately after Firefox started back up. A really nasty snapshot of where free software is at in 2023.
millzlane
Same here, my first reaction wasn't anger. It was to dismiss it so I could get back to work.
sinistersnare
I think that there needs to be a level of accountability here for the programmers who did this. Tech workers need to stand up against this kind of anti-user hostility. Firefox is an openly-developed project, who wrote the code to allow this kind of attack, and should we ask them to commit to not writing such code again?
elaus
I'm not sure what this would achieve? I mean, surely it wasn't some random developer who came up with this idea and implemented it. This is a management decision and management decisions are driven by the company culture.
Zuiii
How do you forcefully eject an ineffective "CEO" of a nonprofit from their position when they have failed their duties and violated their org's charter/mission while giving themself unjustified pay-raises and bonuses? Is there any gov process we can invoke to hold them accountable?
psychphysic
Wow if ad blockers can work does that mean Firefox injects this advert?
Its not just and overlay but code added to the webpage?
I'm awe struck at the stupidity of this idea.
fabrice_d
No it's not blocked by ad blockers, since this was not injected in pages but part of the browser UI (the "chrome").
red_admiral
Unlikely. My guess is that the ad code runs in the context of the browser itself or some newly created context, rather than of the page you were reading before, but whatever fetch() or similar call it makes to load the ad goes through a subsystem that is affected by ad blockers.
Put another way, when you allow ublock or whatever you're using permission to intercept requests for ALL pages, that includes the "page" that mozilla is using to serve this ad.
Further evidence in favour of this hypothesis is that the ad can temporarily disable the rest of the firefox UI until you deal with it, which normal pages certainly can't do.
Kwpolska
I doubt it was injected into pages. The screenshots shows the top chrome dimmed. I suppose people conflated not being randomly selected to get the ad with an ad blocker blocking the ad.
devmor
Bring back the browser wars. I'm tired of only having essentially two browsers to choose from, both from unethical companies that use slimy marketing speak to disguise their intentions.
sounds
I see it as a larger trend away from general purpose computing and toward appliances:
https://www.techspot.com/news/98811-windows-365-boot-paid-su...
https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/24/windows_365_boot_prev...
The browser does a lot of my computing now, and I'm not surprised the "General Purpose Browser" is disappearing, replaced by an appliance with user-hostile behavior that might, maybe, sometimes ... give you some internet browsing. Remember AOL Online?
The solution isn't very complicated. Copyleft [1] uses copyright to preserve user freedom, instead of restricting it -- so the company that wants to monetize the software can't block the user from making copies of the source code.
Let's skip the quibbling over Affero GPL, that's boring. How about inventing a license, where the license restricts the valid activites of the software?
A browser restricted to only make network requests authorized by the user. An OS restricted from spying on the user. A computer that is personal again.
doctor_radium
Hear, hear! The problem is that browser complexity has exploded to the degree that at this point it seems impossible for a small team to reinvent the wheel. Who wants to write a web assembly engine from scratch, let alone the rest?
My main browser has been Waterfox which I update manually, which doubly insulated me from this. But don't misunderstand...I hate pretty much all browsers now, too.
i2cmaster
[flagged]
charlieyu1
A lot of organisations/entrepreneurs have made decisions that are so out of touch with the user base that people would question why would someone do that.
Like, I can understand maximising profit, but you don’t have to enrage your user base to achieve your goals
mulmen
Depends on your goals. Facebook has done well selling outraged eyeballs.
hiccuphippo
Mozilla needs a new wway to make decisions, the current one is obviously not working. New features should have an Enhancement Proposal document that the community can read beforehand and a council that approves it.
freediver
All directly or indirectly ad-supported business models will sooner or later come to the point of breakage in serving user”s best interests, as the fundamental misalignment of incentives between the business and its users creates a force too strong to contain.
This is entirely driven by a simple fact that in ad-supported businesses users are not the same as the customers.
I advocated several times and will do it again - Firefox should completely embrace a freemium browser business model, align incentives with its users, and attempt to have a second golden age (first was 2005-2010).
whoisthemachine
Agreed. I can't help but think that giving normal, technical users a great browser, and then catering on bended knee to enterprises for a very controllable, supported, extended version as the source of revenue that supports the normal browser is a sustainable model. Maybe not a model that takes over the world, but one that sustains development of a good open source browser.
NickHoff
So, what do people think of Vivaldi? I'm a long-time Firefox user but I've been scanning for a new browser for a while now. Even if it weren't for stuff like this, I'll have to change anyway when Firefox dips below ~3% and websites stop supporting Gecko.
deely3
I use it as main browser for the last 7 years I believe. And honestly - I love it. It have some gimmicks - sometime its slow a bit, sometime there some bugs that you have to wait for fix in the new version, but amount of customizability is a thing that overcome any issues.
With Vivaldi I can be sure that my preference will not be removed in the next version as unnecessary or as not popular enough. And there a LOT of preferences to customize as you want.
So, I personally, love it. Again, its not perfect with performance and bug minor happens, but for me its ok. I prefer the feeling that I decide what browser will do and how it feels. Not some corp.
sphars
I used Vivaldi on and off over the past few years, but I've been using FF full time since late last year. Vivaldi eventually starting slowing way down for some reason. Startup took nearly 10 seconds, when it used to be < 3. Not sure what did it. It may be due to the chrome (UI) as it's a very heavy custom CSS solution.
Also their address bar behavior was way different than Chrome or FF, and it kept messing me up.
It might be better now, they've had many updates since I last used it. Might give it another go, now that FF is doing this stuff.
millzlane
I saw this yesterday while I was using the browser at work. At first I really thought nothing of it. It was was strange seeing it out of nowhere and I was indifferent about it. I love the browser and it has saved me time and my sanity by allowing be to block advertisements that infect us all and being reliable as a browser I can always count on to work how I want.
With that said, after reading the bug reports and comments a sense of indignation did wash over me. But only after reading the comments. I honestly forgot about it right after clicking the button.
bentcorner
I saw this too and wasn't too bothered, although I wondered if there was something I did on the page that somehow triggered the "we think you should know about our VPN thing" popup. Which IMO is also a bad thing - users don't know why you're showing them that thing at that particular moment.
The best place to show something like this is probably in an update splash screen. "Hey great news you're updated to v.next, you might want to know about our VPN thing too"
tempodox
Are the bean counters and ad freaks taking the helm? Maybe time to look for a different browser…
photonbeam
What in the world were they thinking. Are we going to have to run IceWeasel builds again
Cyder
i gave up on firefox when i couldn't stop it from connecting to Google on a network device i was working on. Removing all the links from the advanced settings made it fail to start. That's when I realized how hypocritical they are. ( arm64 firefox-esr.) Even the latest chromium on arm64 connects to Google almost daily. i use epiphany-browser for that project now. no unwanted internet traffic from epiphany.
guraf
Yeah when my DNS went sporty I noticed Firefox got very slow to load even local ips and investigated.
Turns out it does two dozen queries on every start. Mostly to unknown Mozilla services but also a few from Google and others I couldn't identify (IP on either AWS or CloudFlare, likely just more Mozilla). And when it can't resolve those hosts it seems to continually retry every few seconds...
Before the apologists arrive, try it yourself. Disable all your add-ons and set your homepage to blank, close Firefox, start wireshark, start Firefox and watch the avalanche.
ravenstine
Any issues with DRM content?
uguuo_o
As a firefox user of a couple of decades, I am now starting to look at alternatives. Anything chromium is a big no, but there are few alternatives. Perhaps it is time to go back to using Lynx.
godshatter
I keep hoping some of the laid off devs will fork the project and we can get back to a mostly volunteer model focused on just the browser. I'd much rather donate to something like that than the Mozilla foundation, at least as it currently stands.
aio2
We have Librewolf fer desktop, and Mull and Fennec for Android. They are forks
walrus01
The particularly terrible thing about this is that the Mozilla VPN product is actually Mullvad underneath, one of the better and more ethical VPN providers. Then they have to do this popup ad bullshit pushed by the browser and take a dump all over it.
mig39
I have Mullvad running on my devices all the time...
I wonder if they showed the ad to Mullvad users?
Also, Mullvad is unique in that it generally doesn't do commissions or special sale prices, etc. The "top rated" VPNs on review sites and YouTube channels are usually the ones paying the most in commission. And it's a reason Mullvad is rarely in the "top rated" lists -- it doesn't pay commissions.
I wonder how that works with Mozilla? Surely Mozilla is getting a commission?
super256
What is the value proposition of using Mozilla VPN over Mullvad directly, other than adding a layer of USA on top of it (which is a bad thing imo)?
Also, has Mozilla VPN also a windows client, or is it more like the Opera Proxies (which were called VPN for some reason)?
jp191919
I use firefox everyday for several hours and I have never seen this before. In the US.
Timber-6539
If the privacy crowd expected different treatment from a woke tyrannical organization in full control of their choice of browser, they only have themselves to blame.
whatshisface
Well, I'm not going to use Chrome, but I guess WebKit is okay... what browser should we be using now?
triyambakam
Brave is pretty good.
_xivi
Arc
pleb_nz
I never saw the ad and I use Firefox an day, I use ublock, would this have blocked it?
lolinder
No, this was in the browser chrome itself. It covered the address bar and tabs as well as the page.
s3p
I've never seen this on my machine. Been using FF exclusively for years.
tezza
Happened to me today.
It mostly caused mild exasperation.
I want FF to survive so this gave me mixed feelings.
First off: they are allowed to try things!
Great they are trying to keep the income incoming.
Bad that they don’t know their users enough that they are attempting this tack. It screams of expensive external consultants building a campaign… Depleting the funds for FF.
john2x
I wouldn't mind seeing Mozilla VPN ads in the Settings menu or the 'new tab' page tbh. But injecting it on top of web pages directly is just scummy.
zeruch
This was definitely not one of their best moves.
dumpsterlid
[dead]
zuprau
[flagged]
InCityDreams
[flagged]
beefnugs
[flagged]
jedahan
.
comice
it's a bit unclear what they intended here but I see a lot of people assuming the absolute worst intent.
That Firefox would fully intend to insert full page unskippable adverts of it's own into unrelated websites is a major accusation and there is evidence this was an accident.
Looks more to me like bleepingcomputer purposefully sensationalized the issue as clickbait.
flohofwoe
Did you even read the article? There's a screenshot which shows that this "feature" even got its own config items (browser.vpn_promo.*). This hardly looks like an "accident".
Also note the weasel language of their statement: "We’re continuously working to understand the best ways to communicate with people who use Firefox. ...".
"Communicate" my *ss. It really makes my blood boil how the Mozilla management hijacked Firefox for their unethical bullshit (because it happens again and again, as soon as the dust has settled over the last 'accident').
Rebelgecko
What else could they have been trying to do? From seeing the bug filed/fixed wrt the issue, it seems like the only unintentual part was that the popup appeared to quickly, it was showing up after 20ms instead of 20s or something like that
devmor
This is not the first time Mozilla has injected an ad campaign into the browser chrome.
They did this a couple years ago as well to similar backlash, that time with a plugin that they force-installed for users.
VTimofeenko
Bugzilla links in yesterday's post:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36077360
seem to indicate that Mozilla intended for the popup to be shown if the user is AFK for 20 minutes but that timer malfunctioned
burnished
Can you point to that evidence? I'm wondering how that change was even ideated let alone rolled out to people.
Recent and related:
Firefox displayed a pop-up ad for Mozilla VPN over an unrelated page - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36077360 - May 2023 (328 comments)