ALICE finds first ever evidence of the antimatter partner of hyperhelium-4
Comments
isoprophlex
3form
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_atom this is also a supplementary fun read. I find it interesting that you could come up with many such combinations, and then answer to "could it exist?" becomes "why, yes!" more often than I would expect.
andreareina
Everything not forbidden is compulsory.
amai
Unfortunately the lifetime of these hypernuclei is of the order of picoseconds. They will not revolutionize material sciences.
automatic6131
Material sciences are generally electromagnetic effects only. I'd be surprised when nuclear changes alters chemistry or engineering in any way that has significance outside of nuclear reactors.
Well, I suppose, radioactive decay is of negative use in chemistry and engineering.
indoordin0saur
One interesting counterexample to this is deuterium and water made from it. It is 11% denser than normal water, ice made from it sinks in normal water, it has a higher heat capacity, is more viscous and has a higher boiling point. It's also completely stable!
ndsipa_pomu
You can also drink it, though not a good idea to have more than a few sips due to the extra weight and different reactivity. You might feel dizzy if you drank a few glasses worth and it replaced the ordinary water in your inner ear.
Also, heavy water is typically slightly radioactive due to it usually containing tritiated water (T2O), though regular water can also contain that.
Apparently, swapping 20% of your cells' water with heavy water is survivable, but if you try this, don't blame me if you go sterile (cell mitosis will likely be affected).
amai
Of course you can find videos of people on YouTube who drink deuterium: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcO1yCAO-pI
automatic6131
Wow that's pretty interesting. I'm least surprised that deuterated chemistry is what's first mentioned, and I'm sure that there are some other good stuff in the category. I bet heavy gasoline (lol) has a lower octane number, for example.
cryptozeus
Wow TIL two cool facts for antimatter use.
Exploring the Universe’s Origins: The Big Bang should have created equal amounts of matter and antimatter, yet our universe is predominantly matter. Studying antimatter helps scientists investigate this imbalance, shedding light on the fundamental laws of physics.
Medical Applications: Antimatter plays a role in medical imaging techniques like Positron Emission Tomography (PET) scans, which are used to detect conditions such as cancer.
naveen99
It doesn’t really help with the origin. If the universe is infinite, any possibility will happen in some part of the universe but not necessarily in the part accessible / visible to us. So our part of the universe could have antimatter or a different part could…
marcyb5st
While this might be possible, we would see annihilation events at the boundaries of matter/anti-matter zones.
Additionally, statistically speaking, such a degree of order is highly unlikely since it would have much lower entropy compared to an homogeneous mix.
It is much more likely that there is some unknown physical process that broke the symmetry between matter and anti-matter and so our universe is matter rich and anti-matter poor.
K0balt
So, are you saying that it might be possible that there are antigalaxies somewhere out there beyond the visible horizon in spacetime ? I mean, of course “possible” like flying elephants possible, but maybe theoretically predictable?
Like maybe the matter went this way, and the antimatter went that way in spacetime? Or maybe all the antimatter went before the Big Bang and the matter went after?
I mean that’s wild but it would fix the symmetry problem!
Cthulhu_
I'm an amateur at best but I've only recently realised the implications of the observable universe, that is, we only know of the existence / size of the universe in what we can see, and there may be (and correct me if I'm wrong) way more Stuff beyond this 'boundary' whose light hasn't / will never reach us.
robotworgen1994
My understanding is for the geometry of our observable universe to make sense, our actual entire universe must be substantially larger to account for the mass needed to make it so.
K0balt
So, what I’m hearing is that between us 3 amateurs, we should write an ebook on antimatter asymmetry and sell it on a website with healing crystals and magnetic antimatter bracelets? I can publish the paper, when do we start?
amai
„Using a machine-learning technique that outperforms conventional hypernuclei search techniques, the ALICE researchers looked at the data for signals of hyperhydrogen-4, hyperhelium-4 and their antimatter partners.“
Which ML technique are they using? Could it be XGBoost, because I heard CERN is using it?
amai
nsxwolf
What is "hyperhelium"? Google only turns up things related to this article.
elashri
It is an exotic nucleus composed of two protons, one neutron, and one lambda particle (which is a type of hyperon -fermions with three quarks- containing a strange quark). This configuration distinguishes it from regular helium-4, which consists solely of protons and neutrons. The inclusion of a lambda particle introduces "strangeness" into the nucleus, making it a hypernucleus [1].
PS: By exotic here it I use the term as used by particle physicists which just mean not your ordinary stuff discussed in the "popular" working groups. Not the linguistic meaning of the word exotic.
ninalanyon
Exotic is defined in the Cambridge Dictionary as:
"unusual and exciting because of coming (or seeming to come) from far away, especially a tropical country"
That doesn't seem too far from the use of it in physics. The "tropical country" part is clearly optional but could be replaced by "especially a special group of scientists".
brian-armstrong
Perhaps searches for exotic matter should take place in tropical regions?
jagged-chisel
Now here is a science recruiting tool
bilsbie
What are the properties of this? Any cool applications?
cogman10
LHC likely created these particles which means we have single atoms that have been created and not full compounds.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the significance of this is mostly just further confirmation of the predictions of the standard model. The standard model says such particles should exist and now that we've created them, we've confirmed that they do indeed exist.
I don't think there's much practical application beyond further refinement of theoretical physics and ruling out other candidate theories.
mrguyorama
It decays in under a nanosecond. A reality of all exotic matter research is that it is exotic almost always because it cannot exist in a stable manner for longer than a second.
The vast majority of applications, if any, will be extremely niche sensing applications. They are useful to further probe the edges of our knowledge of physics and look at the corner cases where our models give confused shrugs and odd answers.
It's not going to power a warp drive.
pfdietz
There has been an idea that quark matter with roughly equal numbers of up, down, and strange quarks could be absolutely stable, the ground state of nuclear matter. Ordinary charged nuclear matter would be inhibited from converting to it (or being absorbed into it) by a strong potential barrier at its surface. However, if this were true neutron stars would actually be quark stars. There is some evidence that this isn't so, so the theory is not held to be very likely these days.
Jabbles
2nd paragraph of TFA
godelski
For those that can’t RTFA, here’s the first sentence of the second paragraph
> Hypernuclei are exotic nuclei formed by a mix of protons, neutrons and hyperons, the latter being unstable particles containing one or more quarks of the strange type.
floxy
OT, but does anyone have updates on potential for antihelium detection on the AMS aboard the ISS? Seems like they have a handful of detections, but aren't quite statistically good enough to be conclusive?
znpy
Reminded me of this weird but cool song: Large Hadron Rap - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM :)
Oh god I just noticed it's from 16 years ago... I'm getting old
gosub100
Surprised the rapper name lil Hadron isn't taken yet
ChuckMcM
It will be interesting to see if this work will help us understand why the universe isn't half anti-matter.
westurner
Does this actually prove that antimatter necessarily exists?
Does this prove that antimatter is necessary for theories of gravity to concur with other observations?
Do the observed properties of antimatter particles correspond with antimatter as the or a necessary nonuniform correction factor to theories of gravity?
gus_massa
My guess is that you are confusing "antimatter" and "dark matter".
If you want some antimmater, you can go to your nearby physics suply store and buy some radioactive material that produce positrons. It's quite easy. (Radioactive material may be dangerous. Don't fool with that!) If you want antiprotons or antihydrogen, you need a huge particle acelerator. They make plenty of antiprotons in the CERN, to make colisions. They are very difficult to store, so they survive a very short time on Earth.
Dark matter is very different. We have some experimental resuls that don't match the current physics theories. The current best guess is that there is some matter that we can't see for some reason. Nobody is sure what it is. Perhaps it's made of very dark big objects or perhaps it's made of tiny particles that don't interact with light. (I'm not sure the current favorite version in the area.) Anyway, some people don't like "dark matter" and prefer to change the theories, but the proposed new theories also don't match the experimental results.
pfdietz
One theory of dark matter is that it's strange quark antimatter. An asymmetry in the behavior of quarks and antiquarks in the very early universe would have led to antiquarks being preferentially squirreled away in tiny ultradense nuggets of quark matter. While explaining dark matter, this would also explain the observed matter-antimatter asymmetry. Or, rather, it would explain it by saying matter and antimatter are present in equal amounts, but the antimatter is in a different form.
If this theory were true, tiny nuggets of this antimatter would be passing through the solar system all the time. Perhaps a future society could detect them and somehow trap some for use as an energy source.
lazide
For that to be true at the scale required to ‘balance the scales’, we’d have constant annihilation events - which would be impossible to miss.
pfdietz
Not true: the surface area of the nuggets could be so small they'd fall below detection threshold.
lazide
Any interaction with normal matter (including solar wind or the interstellar medium) would result in extremely energetic annihilation events. these aren’t subtle.
pfdietz
And if the nuggets have sufficiently small surface area then the rate of these events would be low enough to be obscured by the background from other processes. It would not be like the annihilation from antihydrogen atoms hitting hydrogen atoms. The density of nuclear matter is some 15 orders of magnitude higher than ordinary matter, so nuggets 1 angstrom in diameter could have 10^15 times the mass for a given upper bound on the interaction rate with ambient gas.
lazide
There is no way anyone would miss the radiation emitted though. It would be, at a minimum, a very perceptible ‘glow’ over the volumes of space we’re talking about.
pfdietz
It's not ruled out by evidence, AFAIK, and could explain some observational puzzles.
https://indico.fnal.gov/event/6199/contributions/94686/attac...
(that was 2013; perhaps observations since have made it less likely)
2021 paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.08719
2020 paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342573954_Antimatte... ("a large region of the parameter space remains unconstrained, most notably for nuclear-dense objects.")
ben_w
> The current best guess is that there is some matter that we can't see for some reason. Nobody is sure what it is.
My pet conjecture (it's not detailed enough to be a hypothesis) is that this is related to the baryon asymmetry problem.
The antimatter symmetry problem is more than just baryons, despite the name, as we also have more electrons than positrons, not just more protons/neutrons than anti-protons/anti-neutrons.
There's a few possibilities:
1) the initial value just wasn't zero (an idea I heard from Sabine Hossenfelder)
2) the baryon number is violated in a process that requires conservation of charge
This would suggest antiprotons or antineutrons do something which involves the positron at the same time, so perhaps the anti-neutron is weirdly stable or something — neutron decay is a weak force process, and that can slightly violate the charge conjugation parity symmetry, so this isn't a completely arbitrary conjecture.
If we've got lots of (for example) surprise-stable anti-neutrons all over the place… it's probably not a perfect solution to the missing mass, but it's the right kind of magnitude to be something interesting to look at more closely.
3) the baryon number (proton/neutron/etc.) and/or lepton number (electron/positron/muon/etc.) is violated in a process that does not require conservation of charge.
If you have some combination of processes which don't each conserve charge, you're likely to get some net charge to the universe (unless the antiproton process just happens to occur at the same rate as the positron process); in quantum mechanics I understand such a thing is genuinely meaningless, while in GR this would contribute to the stress energy tensor in a way that looks kinda like dark energy.
But like I said, conjecture. I'm not skilled enough to turn this into a measurable hypothesis.
westurner
What about virtual particles, too?
Virtual particles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle :
> As a consequence of quantum mechanical uncertainty, any object or process that exists for a limited time or in a limited volume cannot have a precisely defined energy or momentum. For this reason, virtual particles – which exist only temporarily as they are exchanged between ordinary particles – do not typically obey the mass-shell relation; the longer a virtual particle exists, the more the energy and momentum approach the mass-shell relation.
ben_w
Virtual particles are the generalisation to all quantum fields of what near-field is in radio to just photons. It's where you don't really benefit much from even calling things "particles" in the first place, because the wave function itself is a much better description.
Unfortunately the maths of QM doesn't play nice with the maths of GR, which is also why zero-point effects are either renormalised to exactly zero or otherwise predict an effect 10^122 times larger than observed.
gus_massa
Even if antineutrons were stable, mixed with normal matter they will colide with protons and release a poiton and a lot of energy. (And the positron annihilate with an electon.)
Anyway, I think there is still a chance that dark matter is antineutrinos. I'm not sure if it has been ruled out.
wbl
I think cosmological limits plus the neutrino observatories put some tight bounds on that.
ConceptJunkie
> If you want some antimmater, you can go to your nearby physics suply store and buy some radioactive material that produce positrons
Or buy some bananas. You'll get a positron every once in a while from the occasional Potassium-40 decay.
gus_massa
I had to look up. Most of the radioctive potassium 40 in bananas decay by electron emmision. A tiny part by positron emision 0.001%. So you will get a lot of noise in the radioacivity detector.
A few sources like https://alpha.web.cern.ch/science/positron-source and https://ifj.edu.pl/private/jdryzek/page_r12.html recomend sodium 22.
orwin
> Anyway, some people don't like "dark matter" and prefer to change the theories
It seems a bit more complicated than that, mostly because the vulgarization often available too is quite bad to explain the issue.
My understanding:
- Our current theories fail to predict/match an array of observations, as if more matter than what we can detect exist. Some scientists called that the "dark matter problem", that's what most physicists working on the subject refer to when they talk about "dark matter".
- Every theory you talked about: dark matter big objects, dark matter particles AND the "change the theories" (i guess you talk about the Modified Newtonian dynamics, where you alter Newton's second law at low speed to match some observations) are dark matter theories: theories that tries to explain why the universe act as it is, not matching our current theories, either by adding new things, or by modifying our discovered laws to match our observations. Each of those theories have multiple branch investigated.
- the "dark matter particle theory" is sometime vulgarized as "dark matter" on podcasts or in books/articles. This is because more scientists work on particle physics than on gravity or astrophysics (my country present like 3 astrophysics thesis each year, and dozens of particle physics thesis). I think this caused a huge misunderstanding.
- Some people with a common understanding (like mine, i meant non-physicists, it's absolutely not derogatory) like MOND because philosophically it is quite nice, and also tend to draw in people with minority/anti-etablishment habitus[0] (cf: most physicists working on those subjects are particle physicists). I'm not saying this theory is worse than the others at all, i'm just saying that the kind of layperson drawn to it can be _really_ sure they're right and profess their beliefs everywhere, and sometime claim that "MOND isn't dark matter", when they really confuse dark matter as a problem to be solved with "dark matter particle theory". Misunderstanding happen to everyone btw, it's really not a big issue.
In case you did not talk about MOND but about theories that claim that the issue are with our tools to observe at a distance, some theories include that to explain some of the inconsistencies, never all of them, and those theories seems to really be a minority atm, so hopefull it wasn't about that.
[0] Also, those habitus seems to draw in grifters who know they can make quick bucks by selling books/conferences if they look convincing enough, which is why MOND has a weird reputation now, but absolutely serious physicists and mathematicians work on the subject very, very seriously.
kuschku
> like MOND because philosophically it is quite nice, and also tend to draw in people with minority/anti-etablishment habitus
MOND is a non-relativistic theory. It's not even able to explain the orbit of mercury, gravitational lensing or black holes.
It's the equivalent of hot gluing jet engines to a roman quadriga, it won't fly.
ars
> MOND is a non-relativistic theory.
Well obviously, it's literally in the name.
A relativistic version of the theory is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor%E2%80%93vector%E2%80%93...
GuB-42
Not really a problem, relativistic effects are negligible at the very low accelerations MOND is about. Should MOND work with galaxies, a theory that say "if the force is less than a threshold, use MOND, otherwise, use general relativity" is not pretty, but good enough to match the observations, and that's the important part.
There are more elegant ways of doing it (ex: TeVeS), but before looking at the best way to reconcile general relativity and MOND, something we know is possible, it is important to make sure that MOND works at the scales it is supposed to work with. Currently, it doesn't, but dark matter doesn't either. More research is needed, as they say.
kuschku
Disclaimer: Personal Opinion:
Personally, I don't think MOND will be the solution. But I don't think it's going to be dark matter either.
1. We don't have a a way to unify relativity and quantum mechanics yet 2. Dark matter and MOND effects show up at extremely low accelerations.
I have a hunch it's going to need a theory of quantum gravity to properly solve this.
A century ago, quantum mechanics was initially formalized to explain the uktraviolet catastrophe of blackbody emissions.
The difference between the classical emissions curve and the quantum based emissions curbe is very similar to the correction factor applied by MOND. I don't think that's a coincidence.
orwin
I never said it was correct, but people smarter than me work on this and I do not have the scientific baggage to say they're wrong.
To me they are as right as people working on lambdaCDM or dark fluid, as long as none of those theory is able to predict anything.
wbl
How is MOND nice? It has a totally unprincipled function appearing that gets adjusted to fit.
orwin
It plays a nice song to the 'einstein/newton was wrong' crowd, and it is philosophically interesting to think that our observations validating Newton second law were (at the time) only made on earth.
And some MOND derivatives are interesting, TeVeS is mathematically nice. I'm pretty sure most people working on those do it for the math more than to be correct tbh, but people way more competent than me work on this subject and I would not dare claim knowing they're wrong or lying.
gus_massa
MOND isn't dark matter.
The idea of dark matter is that the problem is caused by matter we can't see. We assume the standard equations and from the rotation of the galaxies we have some missing mass. But we have a few equations, like gravitational lens, where we also can meassure missing mass and we can compare the results of the different methods. There are a few examples in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics#Ou...
MOND is an alternative solution to the same problem.
I expect that most people working in dark matter are astronomers an cosmologist. I don't expect many particle phycicist realy care about dark matter. I've seen a lot of claim of particle phycicist that their new pet theory may be the dark matter, but it's mostly overhype to try to get more grant money.
orwin
MOND is a theory that try to explain the 'dark matter problem' we have with our current theories. It is in that sense a dark matter theory, one that doesn't use matter as an explanation, like entropic gravity, negative mass or f(R) gravity.
And dark matter is an area of research and experiment in particle physics (at least it was 10 years ago)
dragonwriter
> Does this actually prove that antimatter necessarily exists?
Antimatter definitely exists, it is detectable, and used; e.g, PET scans use positrons (anti-electrons), and there have been experiments (only in animal models last I knew) with anti-proton radiotherapy for cancers.
This is the first evidence of a particular configuration of antimatter, not the first evidence of antimatter.
benbayard
To be more specific this is the first time we have detected hyper-antimatter of Helium where one of the quarks in the nucleus is an anti-strange quark (an anti-lambda from the article)
westurner
Thank you all for corrections and clarifications.
I had confused Antimatter in particle theory (where there is no gravity) and Dark matter, which has no explanation in particle theory and maybe probably shouldn't be necessary for a unified model that describes n-body gravity at astrophysical and particle scales.
westurner
> [dark matter] has no explanation in particle theory
From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42369294#42371561 :
> One theory of dark matter is that it's strange quark antimatter.
ranger207
Antimatter has been used in medical PET (positron emission tomography) scans since the 60s
OscarCunningham
You're confusing antimatter with dark matter.
nsxwolf
With a splash of antimass in that confusion too
westurner
My mistake, my mistake.
It seems I had my Antimatter confused with mah Dark matter.
Antimatter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter
Dark matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
Antimass:
I and the Internet have never heard of antimass.
Negative mass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_mass
Dark energy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy
Dark fluid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fluid :
> Dark fluid goes beyond dark matter and dark energy in that it predicts a continuous range of attractive and repulsive qualities under various matter density cases. Indeed, special cases of various other gravitational theories are reproduced by dark fluid, e.g. inflation, quintessence, k-essence, f(R), Generalized Einstein-Aether f(K), MOND, TeVeS, BSTV, etc. Dark fluid theory also suggests new models, such as a certain f(K+R) model that suggests interesting corrections to MOND that depend on redshift and density
nsxwolf
Negative mass was what I was going for with "antimass". For some reason I thought that was a common term but I guess it is not.
westurner
Not sure why I confused the terms.
FWIU this Superfluid Quantum Gravity rejects dark matter and/or negative mass in favor of supervaucuous supervacuum, but I don't think it attempts to predict other phases and interactions like Dark fluid theory?
From "Show HN: Physically accurate black hole simulation using your iPhone camera" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42191692 :
> Ctrl-F Fedi , Bernoulli, Gross-Pitaevskii:
>> "Gravity as a fluid dynamic phenomenon in a superfluid quantum space. Fluid quantum gravity and relativity." (2015) https://hal.science/hal-01248015/
There's a newer paper on it.
Alternatives to general relativity > Testing of alternatives to general relativity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternatives_to_general_relati...
The new Sagittarius* black hole image with phase might help with discarding models unsupported by evidence. Are those knots or braids or fields around a vortical superfluidic attractor system? There doesn't at all appear to be a hard boundary Schwarzschild radius.
But that's about not dark matter not antimatter.
pvg
Antimatter detection is not the new thing here, being nearly a century old:
https://timeline.web.cern.ch/carl-anderson-discovers-positro...
Daniela4565
[flagged]
dhosek
I’ve always wondered whether the “missing” antimatter in the universe is simply too far away to see, past the light horizon.
And then there’s the exotic theory that at the big bang, regular matter went one direction in time and antimatter the opposite direction.
ben_w
> I’ve always wondered whether the “missing” antimatter in the universe is simply too far away to see, past the light horizon.
I wondered the same thing, but it doesn't work out. Rolling enough dice to get enough of the antimatter far enough away — by a combination of Heisenberg for most of it and local annihilation of what was left — is just too unlikely, given what we see. Boltzmann-brain levels of unlikely.
short_sells_poo
The issue with the "past the observable universe horizon" is that it is an entirely untestable theory. It may be true, but it may as well be irrelevant because according to our understanding of the universe, we are never going to be affected by this fact (since it's in a part of the universe from which information may never reach us).
kadoban
It also answers not much, just changes the question. There's no known reason for all the matter to be over here, where we are, and all of the antimatter to be way over _there_ outside of the observable universe. If anything that seems much less likely than there just being other imbalances in which gets created (or which survives over time, etc.). The universe would have to have preferred absolute directions in which to throw different types of matter/antimatter? That'd be very strange indeed, based on what we know.
dhosek
Not necessarily—perhaps it’s something like what we have right now is the residue of a slight variation from 50/50 in our local part of the universe (so it might have been 50.01% matter, 49.99% antimatter, and after the bulk of the matter and antimatter interacted and destroyed each other, the observable universe is that .02% left over. Do we know enough to be able to search for evidence of this in the cosmic background radiation?
kadoban
My guesses are:
A universe that did that would have too much energy (from the mutual annihilation) once the orders and orders of magnitude of "extra" matter/antimatter interacted to make that likely/possible.
Wouldn't we also see clouds of antimatter just hanging around? What proportion of matter has ever interacted with anything else? My guess is "low".
vl
>There's no known reason for all the matter to be over here
The problem is there is no known reason for universe to exist. As such it could have been created in any configuration possible - including one where we observe matter, but antimatter is beyond event horizon.
Dalewyn
>we are never going to be affected by this fact (since it's in a part of the universe from which information may never reach us).
For curiosity's sake: Wouldn't something like quantum mechanics defy that argument?
semi-extrinsic
Nope, see for instance good explanations in [1] and [2].
The TL;DR is that you can't actually get information out of a measurement of entangled quantum states placed at locations A and B without also transmitting classical information between A and B.
But good question!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation
[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/01/02/no-w...
spullara
they certainly can't hang out together for very long :)
BuyMyBitcoins
But when they do get together, it’s a blast!
ykonstant
In the case of the CMB, a blast from the past.
Wow, fascinating. I had no idea these hypernuclei even existed!
Interesting background read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernucleus