Solar panels at Lidl? Plug-in versions set to appear in shops
Comments
jstsch
SCHiM
Hey jstsch, would you mind answering some questions?
- Did you need/use an electrician to set this up? - How much KWh capacity do your batteries have? - What about fire safety? Did you install outside, or inside? - I assume dec/jan are the months you're not fully self-sufficient, are you allowed to charge from grid to do arbitrage over time, or is that another can of worms?
jstsch
Set it up myself, mostly. Some specific tasks like bringing three-phase power to the garage and hooking up the breaker box I did with an electrician. But installing an additional circuit inside the breaker box, or putting new conduit up, is easy to do safely yourself. Pre-wired breaker boxes can be configured online and are cheap.
The battery is 16kWh. Effectively around 14kWh, since you never fully discharge. LiFePo4, so no chance of spontaneous combustion like other battery chemistries.
I'd say the months Nov→Feb are tricky, although since I have quite a bit of excess solar capacity there are even in December plenty of days where the battery pulls me through the night.
Charging/discharging from/to the grid is possible, since I have a retrofit inverter (AC to battery), but not doing it yet, have to do a bit more research (dynamic pricing, tax is >50% of the kWh price in NL, etc).
pjc50
> But installing an additional circuit inside the breaker box, or putting new conduit up, is easy to do safely yourself.
UK specific note: note that since the changes in 2013 under the ""Part P"" building regulations, almost all electrical work other than trivial replacement is illegal to DIY. Additionally, renewables work requires extra MCS certification.
Which is why balcony solar is a good deal, it requires none of that.
leonidasrup
How many barrels of oil (eq.) are required to manufacture and transport the PV panel?
muskstinks
Its estimated that a PV panel is co2 neutral aver 2 years.
And the great thing is: this is only if the panel was produced with fossil fuels. So due to increase in green energy everywere, this number goes down too and a PV can easily be used for 15 years and after. After that it might just be more economicly to reinvest in a new set of PV panels while the old ones can be sold and used somewere else.
kstenerud
The oil payback (in terms of the panel and associated gear) is about 1.5 years, with a 25-30 year lifetime operating window.
This is with today's efficiencies. They are of course improving.
_aavaa_
Less than it takes to manufacture and transports the barrels of oils it replaces.
projektfu
About 1/10 or so of the output of the panel, e.g. 1 barrel of input energy making and transporting panels saves 10 barrels in fossil fuel energy. That's a rough number assuming a particular mix of oil based energy and no energy cost to procuring the fossil fuels used in the comparison.
guntars
If you are curious about it, why don’t you go and find the answer and then let us know too, no?
ceejayoz
It’s a new account that has posted only pro nuclear and anti solar/wind stuff since its inception.
leonidasrup
You are both right and wrong at the same time.
Long time ago when Siemens in Germany was still building nuclear power plants, I was working in the nuclear power plant engineering department. After the year 2022 when the Russia invaded Ukraine, the gas shortages and the following costs hikes renewed my interest energy sector. Why didn't German reverse it's anti-nuclear stance, even with war in Europe?
Was is the general lack of knowledge of physical, technological and economical aspects of energy, both in German population and decision makers?
The political aspect became clearer after reading "Akte Atomausstieg" by Daniel Gräber.
https://www.perlentaucher.de/buch/daniel-graeber/akte-atomau...
Little bit of money from oil and gas industry always helps.
https://correctiv.org/en/latest-stories/2022/10/07/gazprom-l...
https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-habeck-germany-qatar-...
I think solar and wind are interesting technologies, (solar almost magical - turning photons of light inside thin layer of doped silicon into electrons) but by itself insufficient to power modern world. They are intermittent, weather dependent and low density. Yes the sun and wind come free from Sun, the machines that convert the energy, store it and distribute it are not. Minerals have to be mined, machines build, transported, installed and then disposed off.
Recommended reading:
"Sustainable Energy – Without the Hot Air" by Sir David John Cameron MacKay
Books by Vaclav Smil:
Energy and Civilization: A History
Energy Transitions: Global and National Perspectives
How the World Really Works
"Why Nuclear Power Has Been A Flop" - The Gordian Knot of the 21st Century
There are still big hydrocarbon reserves, gas/oil for atleast 100 years, coal 200 years, at current consumption rates. I fear that, if we don't use the only carbon free high density energy source and cling our hopes to the mirage of renewables, we will transform our atmosphere to hell.
When even the oil and gas giants advertise for renewables, you know that renewables will never replace fossil fuels.
"gas the perfect partner for renewable energies"
https://totalenergies.com/news/news/natural-gas-integral-par...
jstsch
I dislike ‘energy religion’. Nuclear is necessary for Europe. We simply can’t heat our homes and power our industry with renewables in winter. At the same time wind and pv can be built up faster and is simply cheap. Hydro where topography and local bio conditions allow it. We need all those technologies, so we can move away from fossil (climate, resilience and depletion).
pjc50
The real question is "why are nukemen so desperately against renewables (and therefore by default in favor of fossil fuels)?" The all-nuclear future had its moment in the sun in the 70s and has been comprehensively lapped. Only France came close.
> the machines that convert the energy, store it and distribute it are not. Minerals have to be mined, machines build, transported, installed and then disposed off
This is of course also a valid argument against nuclear power.
jacknews
Fewer and fewer, as the whole world electrifies.
Epa095
The usual carbon payback period for solar panels is 1-4 years.
yenepho
I think (obviously) the OP is implying a net save here.
Fokamul
That's 3rd world country problem, British people (with salary in top places of Europe) must save money!
pch00
Britain has the 8th-most expensive electricity in the world[1], seems prudent that a Brit would try to be more self-sufficient in terms of generation?
[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-e...
Fokamul
Ok.
On your map, let's say the source is valid, UK has $0.4. I'm from CZ, we have $0.35.
UK has more than double median salary, DOUBLE. Which means that in some cities it will be actually more like 2x or 3x smaller. But price of electricity is more or less same in the whole country here.
Don't tell me something about expensive electricity and saving money. Because on top of that, let's check affordable housing stats
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/affordabl...
Yep, one of the worst in EU, yaay.
kleiba
In Germany, where Lidl is originally from, you can already order them online in their store. This is a variety for your balcony: https://www.lidl.de/p/vale-gmbh-balkonkraftwerk-ecoflow-860-...
Product Features:
- Name: VALE MiniPV 880-EF8N
- Control: Free App
- Communication: WiFi 2.4 GHz
- Performance: max. 800 W
- Tension: approx. 230 V
- Frequency: 50 Hz
- Power supply: Solar inputs: up to 60 V, mains current 230 V
- Protection rating: IP67
- Material: Solar modules: glass and aluminium frame
- Inverter: Cast aluminium
- Dimensions: approx. L 172.2 x W 113.4 x H 3 cm (per solar module) approx. L 25,3 x W 22.2 x H 3.5 cm (inverter)
- Weight: approx. 56 kg
- Scope of delivery: 2 x Premium solar panels, each 440WP, Black, Bifazial; 1 x Premium inverter 800 Watt with WiFi; 1 x connection cable (5 m), safety plug; Quick start guide
raphaelj
We legalized these in Belgium last year.
I bought a 1600Wc + 1.9KWh kit (Ecoflow Stream) for +/- 1300€ last summer. It took us about 2h to install (we had to setup a new plug outside), and I already saved 200€+ since July. I am expecting to save about 350€ per year.
Also, as u/jstch said, it's extremely fun to setup and generate your own power!
modo_mario
Did you need to get it certified? I think the limit for DIY balcony panels here in Belgium was about 800W.
raphaelj
It is 800W, but the battery allows it to buffer the excess and never output more than the legal limit.
gib444
A 3.7 year ROI would be incredible (and fairly uncommon AIUI)
South facing?
raphaelj
House is facing South, but I'm laying them flat on the floor for economic and aesthetic reasons, with some 3D printed brick-based ballast [1].
Buying supports for PV is actually less economical than buying additional PV panels.
--
muskstinks
Mine was around 4 years and its west south + a tree in the middle. So spring and autom the tree is no problem but in summer lunch hpeak there is shadow on it.
Fokamul
And how does it work there?
You have special electric meter and you are distributing solar power into the grid outside of your household?
Or you don't distribute electricity into the grid?
pjc50
The special definition of "balcony solar" is that it avoids most of those requirements. It seems this is usually done by adding a clamp meter to the input to the house, which sends a control signal to the panel inverter over Wifi to reduce output if it would be feeding back.
(this is country dependent)
raphaelj
You have to register to the utility, but that's just a form to fill with the model and power of the kit.
With a e-meter, you will get compensated when you're generating a surplus (+/- €0.04/kWh last time I checked).
However, thanks to the battery, I'm self-consuming almost all that electricity, saving around €0.30/kWh.
Expect 800kWh of annual production per 1kW of panels.
ragebol
My guess as a Dutch guy, not 100% familiar with our neighboring country's rules etc): Yes, exporting to the grids. If a house has an old Ferraris meter, it will rotate backwards or a new, smart(er) meter, that has a separate counter for delivery back to the grid.
raddan
How does panel shut-off work for emergency responders? Where I live, a solar energy system is required to have a shut off switch. For example, my system has a big red handle mounted on the side of the house. This is important not just for first responders like firefighters but also for linemen repairing downed lines, which are pretty common where I live (a mountainous rural area).
Given that these store-bought panels are being plugged into house AC, it follows that they have built-in inverters. Many grid-tied inverters are “grid follow”, meaning that they adjust themselves to grid frequency/phase. So, just speculating here… maybe the inverter senses when the mains go down and turns itself off? I would love to know from an EE what is actually happening wrt safety.
cillian64
It'll be the same as larger inverters for roof-top solar - they are constantly monitoring the mains cycle and will shut off if the voltage (or probably frequency too?) goes out of range, let alone drops out entirely. The relevant standards in the UK are G98/G99.
raphaelj
These inverters have to switch off if they cannot detect a grid signal, or if the grid frequency/voltage goes out of the safe range.
Same legislation as the non-plug&play inverters.
mnmalst
Does this mean if you have a main grid power outage the solar panel cannot provide your house with power either?
Confiks
Not necessarily, but most inverters (in Europe, at least) aren't designed to function without a grid anyway.
Some models of inverter brands like Victron (which isn't very common outside its niche of self-sufficiency because they are rather expensive and sometimes complex) can form a micro-grid. They have the option of a special circuit breaker [1] that decouples the inverter from the grid if the grid is detected to be down, which allows their use during a power outage.
[1] https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/anti-islanding-box...
raphaelj
Mine (Ecoflow Stream Ultra) has two 1200W regular sockets I can use while the grid down.
raddan
Yes.
Klaster_1
Man, I'd buy these in a heartbeat if our local Cyprus regulations allowed for these. Participating in green transition as an immigrant renter sucks.
rickydroll
Check with your local utility. Here, (MA, USA), we can't run classic balcony solar (feeds the grid when you produce more than you consume). But we can run zero-export solar (never feeding the grid, but dialing back the inverter when you produce more than you consume).
The economics behind battery-backed zero-export solar are interesting because they keep your local solar energy local, and you can extract maximum benefit from the system. Also, if you have enough batteries and TOD rates for grid power, you can store grid energy when it's cheap (overnight) and use it locally when it's expensive.
Our local utility, National Grid, has a program where, if you have the right inverter-battery combination, they will buy power from you during peak-load periods, and you can make a couple of grand a year.
Batteries, especially local ones, change the dynamics of power generation and use. It's amazing and wonderful.
singularity2001
Wouldn't it make much more sense to deliver them with a battery? How would you connect a battery to such system?
ajb
The UK regs update[1] mentions a battery, but you have to pay for it so I don't have the details.
It appears your could legally install one of these panels on the 15th of this month, but there presumably won't be any certified to comply with the regs on sale yet.
[1] https://electrical.theiet.org/amendment-4-updates-to-18th-ed...
pjc50
Batteries are still relatively expensive, large and heavy; panels are extremely cheap.
gcanyon
For anyone curious, it appears that quality/output varies widely. Here's a video review of some smaller panels by Project Farm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVkJKCoRATs
timonoko
Last time I bought a panel from Lidl, it worked only on very sunny day. Very Strange.
Inspection revealed it had two 6 Volt 10 Watt panels in parallel and then 12V to 5V USB-converter.
When panels were reconnected in series it was quite OK.
muskstinks
What do you mean? Do you mean small solar panel for smartphones? Because the panels in the article are over a square meter big. Mine make 200-400 watts on sunny days
timonoko
Yes. But 20W panel is panel too.
Little worried about Lidl-quality also on larger scale.
muskstinks
Thats competly two different things.
Different companies, different manufactoring methods and different components. The inverter is the biggest cost at normal PVs for example, the panel itself is glas and alumnimum and not epoxy or plastic.
hkpack
I tried to set up Bluetti solar panel on my balcony in a similar way, but the efficiency was abysmal because of the angle to the sun.
I wonder for how many people it will work in practice?
Putting panels on the roof should be much more efficient…
pjc50
> Putting panels on the roof should be much more efficient
Yes, but it's also much more expensive.
aitchnyu
Please tell your latitude or location.
mememememememo
Any dangers from plugging this in to a socket?
Does it need its own earth? Will it switch off if it detects a residual current? Can it handle spikes in load?
muskstinks
No your normal socket can be used the other way around without issues and that reverse load doesn't create a problem.
Its even reducing your load on your main line beause the energy directly flows into the next consumer.
German socket has earth, thats fine. It has protection mechanism and shuts down if it can't sync to the powergrid. The panels only produce (in peak!) 400-800 watts. Thats not an issue.
muskstinks
I have one on my balcony. 400 Euros and it saves me 10% of my energy bill.
works well and is probably now refinanced.
lnsru
Which energy bill? Monthly or yearly?
progbits
Beautiful thing about percentages...
oneeyedpigeon
Yeah, "how much is 10% of your energy bill" would be a much more useful question!
fragmede
about 10%!
tbrownaw
Well, "yearly", "monthly, in the summer", and "monthly, in the winter" could plausibly all be different numbers.
latexr
It’s the same thing. Say you have a bill of 120€/year. On average that comes to 10€/month (120€ divided by 12 months). If you have save 10% a month you save 1€, which after 12 months becomes a saving of 12€. Now do that yearly: 10% of 120€ is… 12€.
citrin_ru
10% of saving for July's or August monthly bill will give less than 10% saving for the year as in the winter solar output is lower.
muskstinks
I pay 100 Euros per month energy bill and save 10% of it so 10 Euros per month or 120 Euros per year.
Markoff
are you running bitcoin farm or cook and heat with electricity with 100 eur monthly bill? my yearly consumption for whole household of 4 people is around 1.2MWh (gas cooking, and external grid central heating), which makes like <400EUR per year in Czechia (infamous for high electricity prices across Europe) and already now most of my fees are not really my consumption, but distribution and other stuff, it's even worse with my gas cooking with only 0.5MWh per year, where I paid almost only fixed fees and not the actual consumption, but tried cooking on induction and hated it
pjc50
The average consumption figures used by the UK regulator https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/average-gas-and-electricity-use-exp... are 7.5MWh gas and 1.8MWh for a "small" household, so I guess you're really frugal and/or well insulated?
muskstinks
Nope just a normal server running 24/7, a condens dryer, a gaming rig and working from home (so display, lights and kvm switch running 8/5).
240kWh per month, 35cent per kWh and a base price of 10 Euros.
creddit
Secondly unfortunately
Hamuko
Are you paying for electricity and transfer on a separate schedule or something?
Fokamul
How is this handled in your country? We're talking only about solar panels which plugs directly into your main.
Because here, small country in EU, this is not allowed since it would mean ridiculous investment into electric infrastructure.
It's heavily regulated and you need special electric meter, license, etc. and still price of electricity is negative in certain times during the day, because everyone who could, got their solar power plant from EU subsidies.
bildung
In Germany there was zero investment into the electric infrastructure, but the power allowed to flow from the panels into the grid is currently limited to 800W for this type of system. Seems to work fine. Larger systems still need a license.
Hamuko
Seems like they're illegal as hell in Finland.
https://tukes.fi/-/ala-kayta-pistorasiaan-kytkettavaa-aurink...
If you want solar panels without having to get an electrician, you'd need to connect them to a battery that's not connected to the mains.
yostrovs
I've been seeing headlines of this sort last few weeks. It points to Europe preparing for the next time the Hormuz is blocked off. But are there actual actions taken beyond those that save 10 percent on an apartment's electricity bills? Are there large scale mitigation measures that would actually soften the impact of another energy shortage in a serious way?
gib444
I don't mean this lightly: you absolutely can not trust the average Brit to safely install these on a balcony.
If they think they can get an ounce more sunshine, they'll hang it over the edge, badly
afh1
Why do Europeans need permission from their governors to buy solar panels? I bet you also need to pay taxes on the energy you generate even though you alleviate the infrastructure need.
kstenerud
Because those "governors" need to first ensure that their grids and home electrical systems are equipped to handle a solar system pumping into the house power system.
You speak as though that were a bad thing. I'd rather not have people accidentally burning their houses down.
Once it's approved for an area, you go to your local shop, buy an approved PV system, and plug it in. No fuss, no worries, and your insurer must cover it.
lukaslalinsky
You need permission to connect it to the grid.
Markoff
what if you don't want to connect it to grid and use it in islanding mode? seems like it shouldn't be anyone's business
mememememememo
If you pay tax on generated energy they would have to let you deprecate the cost of the panel as a cost. Would be interesting as to where that lands and if it makes much tax revenue at all.
pjc50
Everywhere has electrical safety regulations.
Fokamul
I think this is ridiculous misconception, never heard of that you cannot buy solar panels in EU.
The post is about permission to plug solar panels into your main electricity.
Eg.: Small EU country, definitely not allowed and under huge fines. Without proper equipment, solar power plant license etc. etc.
Every installed PV-panel is a dozen barrels of oil (eq.) less CO2 in the atmosphere. Plus, so much fun to generate your own power! Can highly recommend it, even starting small.
It's addictive though. Living in the center of the city (The Hague, NL), with a home battery, I'm now 100% self-sufficient electrically for 10 months of the year.