The Car That Watches You Back: The Advertising Infrastructure of Modern Cars
Comments
jmward01
arkadiyt
I bought a 2024 RAV4 Hybrid and
1) physically removed the modem (the "DCM") and
2) disconnected the GPS antenna from the head unit
Took a little research but was still an approachable project
duskdozer
What still functions and what broke?
arkadiyt
When I removed the DCM the in-car microphone stopped working, but I bought one of these to get it working again: https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/store/AHH-DCM77.
Also even with no modem, if you use CarPlay on your phone _via Bluetooth_ then the car will just use your phone's internet connection, so I only use CarPlay via a wired USB connection.
Aside from that the car works great, everything is 100% functional. I suppose I don't get OTA updates, which I'm fine with.
jmward01
Wow, that is evil that they steal your data to send telemetry back via carplay. I always assumed that was possible so I have never actually hooked my phone up to a car but it really saddens me that it actually happens. There is 0 requirement for my phone to pass along raw internet access to the car in my opinion.
kioleanu
I have a Skoda and the GPS module was broken and that messed up a lot of the systems in the car, I couldn't use the adaptive cruise control, no traffic signs recognition and no SOS module. And apparently CarPlay sometimes uses the car's GPS module, so navigation was also a pain. I'd have to start the navigation from outside the car, otherwise it wouldn't use the phone's GPS.
chinathrow
> so I only use CarPlay via a wired USB connection.
Wouldn't that also share your phones internet connection with the car?
duskdozer
Is there anything special in the harness? Or is it just a wiring setup to make it easy to plug in with the bypass?
rkagerer
Did the car have a built-in navigation feature? I presume after you removed the GPS connection it broke, and you instead use CarPlay for navigation?
sorahn
Cool so my USB wireless car play dongle still has some life left in it. Good to know.
lynx97
Given that some countries already move on legislation for government remote control of cars, I wonder how long this method will be actually legal.
hdgvhicv
> This is YC
The home of the advertising and data broker industry.
michaelt
Motorbikes are available without any of this tech, if you want something made this year without the need to remove any components.
Sure, there's an elevated risk of death, but you've got to balance that against the fact bike go vroom vroom.
lionkor
I swear there is a psyop to get me to buy a very fast motorcycle, like, me specifically.
I do want one, and I'm not going to get one! I have self control. Don't look at my Ebay notifications.
trinix912
Maybe if you live in an area with a warm and dry climate. Otherwise you're out of luck half the year unless you want to risk it daily on icy or wet roads.
michaelt
Just put on your undershirt, shirt, sweater, jacket liner, leather jacket, hi-vis tabbard, leather trousers, overtrousers, under-gloves, leather gloves, scarf, two pairs of socks, leather boots, balaclava and helmet.
2III7
Still driving my 2014 Golf mk7. No ads, physical buttons, adaptive cruise, frontal collision avoidance, great reliability. Not planning an upgrade any time soon.
kakacik
2014 BMW 5 series F11, still nothing just good dumb assistants (like laser HUD so I never ever get speeding tickets) and bad dumb ones which can be turned off (keeping lane doesn't work at all in any construction zone and interfering with driving is a big nono).
The way they are set up together makes driving much more pleasant (heck its BMW so perfect balance and great handling at curves) and much less tiring for long haul (do from time to time 1500km 16h single day push). Was worried about automatic transmission but in their implementation its a joy and a beast in Sports mode, again less mental burden.
I really, really don't want anything more in the car, until we have 100% FSD where I can sleep or watch movies. There is no space between those, not for me.
2III7
The ZF auto should last for the lifetime of the vehicle if serviced correctly. The engine will probably give out before the transmission.
m4ck_
What Edison motors is trying to do with their conversion kits is the solution for us privacy-aware folks, I think. If they, or someone, manage to bring hybrid/electric conversion kits to the market, we'll have an option that's slightly better than hoping parts stay available for older cars.
KetoManx64
I bought a 2025 Ford Maverick and pulled the fuse for the telematics unit, which also disconnects the modem. It disables the OTA updates, remote start which Ford does through a phone app (you can buy a third party keyfob attachment for $100 to do remote start easily enough), and emergency calls through the head unit. None of the features that I hugely care about. Android Auto works without issue and that's all I need the unit for.
mkatx
Just did a quick search.. dunno the vid quality, but the point being "'I Remove This Mysterious Tiny Chip Before Using The Phone!' Edward Snowden"
https://www.bitchute.com/video/QqQmHy6aqlLe/
I'm not sure how realistic this is, but conversations like this always remind me of this procedure.
Edit: maybe should have responded to the OP directly.
CalRobert
Slate maybe?
jmward01
So far I have seen slate position itself as stripped down, but the thing I haven't seen is that they will be privacy aware. These are two totally different things. I want a simple but functional vehicle which does mean a comfortable vehicle that has reasonable features, but the honest truth is most features I don't want are purely because I want to be privacy aware. I don't want built in maps because I know they will connect and sell my location. I don't want and 'on-star' like feature because I know (for a fact with on-star) they will sell my data to insurance companies (actual harm to me will happen in other words). I don't want anything connectable to an app because I know that means their servers are constantly in control of my vehicle. I have 0 trust so I want a vehicle with one critical feature: no sim. If you can build a car without a sim I will buy it. If it has a sim I will avoid it until I have no actual other choice.
roarcher
I can't speak for other makes/models/years with certainty, but my 2024 Ford Maverick has a "Telemetry Control Unit" that is easily accessible through a hatch by the front passenger seat. Unplugging it disables all communication with Ford servers and I can confirm the app no longer works.
The infotainment center also has no built-in maps as it relies on Android Auto/Apple CarPlay for everything except climate control and the AM/FM radio.
eks391
What you described sounds to me like slate. It doesn't have maps or a sim. It doesn't even have a digital dashboard at all[0].
I barely looked it up so I'm no expert, but that's what I'm interpreting from their site.
jmward01
Again, not having a feature doesn't mean they don't send telemetry back. They can be stripped down AND steal my privacy. In fact, I expect them to considering the backers.
eks391
This seems to be a dual concern: do they collect driver data during vehicular usage, and/or during web browsing?
For the first, my argument is they simply cannot, even if they wanted to, in the same way I can't track my friend if I supply him with a toothpick. There simply isn't sufficient technology in a toothpick by itself for me to violate their privacy, so I would need other methods, like agreements with businesses or a backdoor to his phone.
Regarding web usage, their privacy policy says
> To contractors, service providers, and other third parties we use to support our business.
> If you do not wish to have your email address or phone number used by Slate to promote our own or third parties' products or services, you can opt out by changing your communication preferences in your Slate account.
I have read a lot of privacy policies, and this verbiage suggests that they don't sell your data (even in aggregated form), but they do sell access to a customer base. This is similar to youtubers getting sponsored - only assumptions of the customers can be made based on the youtubers content, and no YouTube telemetry itself, since that it owned and processed by YouTube, not the youtuber. Otherwise the policy would have mention of selling data. This is further confirmed by the language that you are opting out of emails to not receive third party stuff, not opting out of selling of data. Since data being sold is required to have an opt out method (in most US states), it is further safe to infer no data is sold. Just access to the reader base.
I hope this answers your questions on whether they are worthwhile to use. Personally, I think this is honorable and I'd be confident to say that these cars don't have the problem being discussed in this forum.
torginus
Aren't most of these privacy-encroaching systems mandatory?
beAbU
Slate doesn't exist yet. So until that happens, we should bot include it in converstions like this.
griffoa
[dead]
everyone
Solution: Get a modern car but simply build a Faraday cage around it, like those anti-drone "cope cages" you see on Russian tanks.
nerdsniper
I believe faraday cages need to be grounded. I'm not sure what the resistivity of rolling rubber tires are.
GJim
These were all the rage in the 1980/90's
red-iron-pine
the progenitor of the truck nuts
also, wasn't static causing fires at gas station pumps, esp. in cold weather?
AngryData
They don't HAVE to be grounded, but they are WAY more effective if they are.
genewitch
cope cages look like hardware fence (like chicken wire but welded, pig fence, sheep fence, goat fence are closer.)
However, the US already put fencing around fighting vehicles, specifically the Bradley, where the fence was essentially "chain link fencing".
I'm not entirely sure i buy that the cope cage stops drones; but the chain link fence absolutely stops RPGs from exploding by severing the wire that runs on the outside from the tip to the explosive.
krige
Original cope cages were a very misguided attempt to copy the functionality of the actual working fence-like defensive measures. Except in those cases they did next to nothing, which is why they were dubbed cope cages.
AFAICT the concept was improved since then but I haven't been following the tech tree of cobbled-together defensive measures used in that war in a good while.
genewitch
if anyone wants to see what the bradleys in Iraq were kitted out with, https://imgur.com/a/vCXPqUa this is circa 2008 or so. Mentioned to a friend who always mentions that chain link fencing saved his life and now i come to find out it was just bar armor. weak!
* not weak, it saved my friend's life, awesome.
genewitch
haha, i was wondering why i'd never heard the term. So a cope cage is a cargo cult artifact?
mmooss
What are the options for cars that don't track you? For example, new cars that don't include tracking, cars old enough to not have it, cars that can be modified (e.g., parts disconnected, software updated) to stop it, etc.
culi
Great question. It feels like there's no real options here except buying older cars. Mozilla did a review and every brand they looked at flunked
https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-...
The "least creepy" were Renault and Dacia and the "most creepy" were Nissan and Buick.
Apparently there's tools like Privacy4Cars that could help you delete your car. Based on their website, it seems their primary customer is enterprise
charcircuit
This Mozilla report is low quality and treats legal boilerplate as proof of them spying. It says a car is snooping on you via its microphone even if that microphone is purely used for support Bluetooth calls.
Lio
Then as a minimum the report should act to encourage car manufacturers to use less boilerplate and be more specific in their terms.
This “we reserve the right to do everything” bullshit has got to go.
charcircuit
Why would they give up legal liability if they didn't have to?
Lio
To avoid reputational damage for something they don’t really intend to do.
In case of Nissan they’ve claimed they don’t really want to sell information on customer sexuality to advertisers.
If that’s really the case they should stop claiming that unnecessary right.
It makes them look pretty sinister as it stands.
Telaneo
I prefer a society where people are liable for the awful shit they do.
rkagerer
For my business and that of everyone else who stops forking over their money in these one-sided, despicable agreements.
ehnto
It's easy for me to say because I don't mind old cars, but you really don't have to go that old to find something without ad-tech or tracking. You can have a completely acceptable experience in say a 2015 Toyota Camry or Crown or whatever equivalent you get in your country, with lane assist and excellent safety, but no phoning home.
The answer really depends on how much you don't want to be tracked, is it a big concern worth a lot of effort and compromise, or do you just kinda wish it wasn't happening?
If the former, there are plenty of vehicles to choose from the relatively recent past. I haven't looked into it but I imagine a lot of cars could have their phoning home disabled too, and it'd be surprising if all of these cars will be paying for an internet connection/SIM for decades to come so eventually the modern ones will fall off the net anyway.
layoric
A 90s Camry, Corolla, or Civic seems to have become the peak minimalist car. Shame we will never likely see an EV equivalent focused on utility and cost efficiency without all the bloat. I don’t think there is a good option sadly, any ICE car will eventually just become unmaintainable, and I can’t see a path to EVs that are just cars and don’t come with all this tracking.. hope to be proved wrong..
wiml
I'm pretty curious what Slate's telematics/privacy story will be like. No way to tell until they start shipping, I guess. It's pretty cheap to add a cell modem, so I don't think it's safe to assume that a "bare bones" car necessarily won't have spyware.
eks391
I haven't heard about slate till just now, but based on their specs, it doesn't seem like they are capable of collecting or selling data. The dashboard is your personal tablet or phone. It literally seems to just be a battery, motor, chassis, and trunk, with climate control and required safety features
mmooss
> The dashboard is your personal tablet or phone.
That seems worse in terms of tracking. Those are the leading tools for tracking people.
eks391
What I'm saying is the car doesn't have a method to track you, and if you want entertainment, you have to bring it.
If you don't want your phone to track you, just don't bring it, but most people will have their own phone on them when they travel anyway. It's unfair to blame Slate for the invasiveness of whatever phone you choose to have.
duskdozer
Isn't it Bezos? In which case I have little faith it won't be like the rest.
Peanuts99
I have a Polestar with a big touch screen on the dash. You can disconnect the cellular module in about a minute and everything still works fine. There are many such vehicles, I think this story is a little overblown.
ItsBob
In the UK, any car that used a 3G modem is fine now: we have no 3G networks here any more.
GJim
Ummmm
Unlike the Americans, we have the GDPR. No UK/EU car is tracking you or gathering personal data from you without opt-in consent, which you can choose not to give.
(And before somebody starts ranting, the eCall 112 system doesn't track you willy nilly)
unethical_ban
The one with a fuse on the modem circuit, no?
teh_infallible
I’m hoping the new Slate electric cars don’t have this.
beAbU
Boy do I have a bridge to sell you.
cadito
The transition started with drive-by-wire and the CAN bus, but the moment they added cellular modems, the dashboard became a platform. Automakers are currently running the exact same programmatic targeting logic as web publishers and in-store retail networks. The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.
Tried to look at the actual ad-tech and architecture driving this rather than just doing another "touchscreens are bad" rant.
gib444
> The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.
This obviously needs fixing !
The only way to do it is to force you to click "Refuse" or "Agree" each and every time you start the car and to not let you drive until you click an option.
This will be a massive win for consumers.
dzhiurgis
Cybercab has electric brakes.
downrightmike
$60k min, 80+month loans, Insurance++, and you are still the product. So much for the freedom of the open road.
CalRobert
I do love my electric cargo bike…
parlortricks
Cargo cult represent! How good are they, aye. I bought one 2 months ago, had it for 2 weeks and already done 200+kms on it, and that has saved me $60 in fuel so far. It is great for getting around and grabbing shopping last minute, going to work and just feeling more connected and happy.
CalRobert
They're awesome! If you live somewhere where you have safe infrastructure for any trip you'd like to make it's life changing. And I love carrying my kids in it :-)
BobaFloutist
More importantly, so much for "If you're not paying, you're the product."
I mean I guess it's still true, but the inverse sure isn't.
youniverse
At least Tesla is doing something right with direct sales and no suffering through a dealership just adding on cost.
hamandcheese
> Tesla is doing something right
Yes, capturing more shareholder value is a virtue.
incoren3
The newest car I own is 14 years old, and the next one I buy will have a carburetor.
And you better believe I will ride around on a fucking HORSE before I put up with ads on my dashboard. Screw that noise.
lionkor
E-Bike, motorcycle, older cars, and once all of those aren't an option anymore, we're going to start stripping cars down.
iugtmkbdfil834
Dunno man. I am inclined to do it and maybe even able to, but I will admit that there is some hesitation in messing too hard with internals of a rather expensive toy. Part of me is really hoping custom EV kits come here faster so that I can finally have proper EV vette in 90s body.
lionkor
I think it will have to be an underground scene with people who know how to "dumb down" cars doing it for some amount of money. Doesn't have to be illegal, but we keep somehow all voting for the biggest idiots the world has ever seen, so modifying your car within safe limits might be illegal soon.
Peanuts99
Think you're greatly underestimated how unreliable carburetors can be.
rozap
Diabolical devices. Anything between 1990-2015 is sort of the gold era of cars. A modern engine swap was the best thing I did for a number of my vehicles. And there are FOSS ECUs that are extremely capable.
Ozzie_osman
Surprised to see no mention of Chinese cars, which are currently taking over the rest of the globe (EVs, REVs, hybrids). For half the price of a US or European car, you get a car with a lot more bells and whistles, which of course, include multiple large screens inside, software that controls everything (seat positions, lights, etc), LED matrix lighting on the front, and an app to control the car remotely.
thenthenthen
Not to mention the video advertisements sometimes on top (outside), in the rear window or on small screens facing the passengers (havent spotted a camera in those, but that seems just a matter of time). Most drivers also have dashcams.
dmitrygr
replacing the antenna with a 50-ohm resistor works very well. The car thinks it is out of cell reception and continues to work. No manufacturer would dare have their cars stop working merely due to it being in Montana (indistinguishable from having no cell antenna/reception).
dwedge
It made me laugh that a site "nobodyaskedforthis.lol" specifically about an aversion to modern tech (tracking, advertising) was written by an LLM
smilespray
Where does it say it was written by an LLM?
This felt like human writing to me. I could be wrong, of course.
skiing_crawling
Ive been screaming this since touch screens in cars started catching on. We are surely beyond believing automation is done for convenience and betterment of our lifestyles at this point. It's all to create more time and a new surface for us to serve ads on. The average consumer is completely infatuated with the idea of their car being a doom scrolling device, so we get dragged further into hell.
red-iron-pine
> The average consumer is completely infatuated with the idea of their car being a doom scrolling device, so we get dragged further into hell.
bollocks. all available research suggests the average person strongly prefers manual controls and buttons and is not into touchscreens and the like.
and none of those discussions precludes auto manufacturers from just putting mics in the car -- even with 95% old school buttons they could just wire it up to listen to you and pipe it out to a tiny LTE transmitter.
skiing_crawling
The research is wrong because people are buying the iPad on dash cars. The data collection, sampling, or methodology of the research presents a different result than the market reality of what people actually bought with their money.
Lio
It would be a great idea for a website to sell the latest versions of cars, used or new, that didn’t feature enshitification tech.
Maybe it’s not a huge market but I bet there is some market still for a quality experience.
dotancohen
That sounds like a lot of liability. For one thing, it almost certainly means that the vehicle is being sold without the manufacturers warranty. It also might mean that the manufacturern won't even support the vehicle for service. And finally, by disabling OTA updates there could be safety implications.
Lio
Who said anything about disabling or modifying anything?
You just look for older car models that don’t snoop.
Cars made before about 2017 for example.
dotancohen
I see what you're saying now.
In my opinion, a regulation that would require such surveillance tech to be disclosed, not unlike tobacco warning labels, would go a long way.
dackdel
a fully disconnected car that does not report back to its mother ship. does. not. exist. only other option is to buy a car old enough that does not have it. also if you didn't bring this up most north americans would be blissfully unaware, as long as the car has a good cup holder.
defrost
'course it does .. any custom build shop will leave such things out on request, a great many don't even add in remote networking to begin with.
tardedmeme
that's illegal in the EU, the car is mandated to be able to call 112 automatically, therefore it must have a cellphone in it
crote
This can be a completely independent unit. In fact, with all the safety-related certifications I bet that's even the easiest and cheapest way to do it!
hollow-moe
I swear I didn't know the antennae of the tracker ~~safety~~ device was wrapped in aluminum all this time!
duskdozer
This is the one feature I'd actually like to have. It's a shame the adnet has to abuse everything.
gambiting
Custom builds are exempt from this requirement.
dwedge
> as long as the car has a good cup holder.
The lack of a cup holder is the only thing I would change about my '98 Toyota MR2
fiatpandas
An interesting late stage capitalism ad hack I’ve seen in cars : OTA digital radio transmits track metadata like artist, title, and album artwork. I’ve seen some stations transmit tiny square ads in place of album artwork, even while the song is playing.
torginus
Fun fact: I remember encountering the term 'late stage capitalism' while reading some William Gibson novel, I think it was Burning Chrome, which was written in the early 80s.
lynx97
Its small, but there remains the hope that progressive enshittification of cars might convince a few people not to own one. Cities with useful public transport infrastructure already see a trend of young people not owning a car, which is good.
dwedge
My city recently closed a load of employee parking, extended the paid parking zone, and simultaneously reduced the time covered by a bus ticket by 25% and displays adverts on the screens inside buses.
lynx97
Democracy fans would say: "All you have to do is to thank them when the next vote comes up."
P.S.: I can't even imagine how much of a distraction ads in public spaces must be. I am blind. While that is clearly a disability, whenever I read things like what you just posted, I am reminded how blessed I am. Maybe there will be a time when 100% blindness is actually an advantage?
VladVladikoff
Awful writing. Cant stand that LLM generated drivel. Ruins it for me.
On the topic however I do wish there was a fully disconnected modern car. Maybe a Corolla with base trim has no starlink?
sandworm101
Motorcycles are the last refuge of vehicle privacy. No (japanese) sportbike manufacturer would dare track customer activity. They really do not want to know how thier customers use thier products.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS
Plausible deniability
helterskelter
I know you can yank the modem out of a SuperDuty. Say what you will about them, they're work-oriented despite the luxury packages available and don't force you into being treated like the product -- Ford will track your location if you don't pull the modem, but at least it isn't necessary for the ICU and it doesn't nag you about the anything being disconnected. Fuel prices and gas economy are another issue...
(You may be able to do this with other Ford models)
helterskelter
Sorry, I meant ECU not ICU.
everyone
I guess just stick to cars from mid 2000's and older.
There is another issue with newer cars too, They have extremely loose piston rings, after X thousand miles they burn as much oil as a 2 stroke.
This one issue, privacy, has stopped me from buying a new car. It is stopping me from even buying a used one since it is hard to figure out how far back you need to go to be rid of these things. Screaming at the wind though isn't helping. We need actual real options. I will buy something that it privacy aware. This is YC. Someone, build the startup that sells that and you have my money.