Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again
Comments
ikut3hva
svara
Genuinely happy to hear you're successful here! But, why would you expect there to be no drawback to not knowing the local language when moving to a foreign country?
lispisok
So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?
brewdad
Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society.
Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.
malshe
Here is my anecdote. I was in Germany recently and met with a South American woman. We briefly talked about our immigrant experiences. She is now a German citizen married to a German man. However, she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one. By contrast, when I became an American citizen, my American friends (white and hispanic) insisted that they attend the naturalization ceremony.
arka2147483647
There is deep history here. For most of the past centuries, most Europe was from where you immigrated FROM, not where you immigrated TO.
There just is not the kind of immigration culture as in America. Some people don’t even have a notion why anyone would want to come to Europe.
tough
The oldest american "citizens" are merely 250yo. Like the country.
My point being, everyone in America is more or less an "immigrant" if you go back enough on their family tree, but the Native Americans.
bossyTeacher
Relative to South America, Germany is going to feel very unfriendly. I think it's a matter of perspective. Also, countries that are very homogeneous (ie everyone looks the same) are probably going to have some ethnic ideas built in their idea of citizenship so your citizenship will be question if you don't look like them or behave like them. South America and Germany are very different regions culturally sitting at opposite ends of most cultural traits so her experience isn't surprising.
joe_mamba
As someone who lived in the US briefly, I found Americans are just a lot more hospitable to foreigners, than Germans and most other Europeans in general.
Probably because there's no such thing as an american ethnicity, but there definitely is at least one or more unique and very distinct ethnicities and cultures for every European country, and simply getting the passport as a foreign adult, does not also buy you into those clubs, you just got a piece of paper, not the culture and belonging the locals with ancestry there have.
It's not something you can learn as an adult in a big international city, it's something you get from growing up there surrounded by that culture and ethnic ingroup formed by your ancestors.
The equivalent for americans would probably be those whose ancestors were there before the civil war but that's a smaller % of the population today vs the more recent immigrants compared to Europe. Sure, there's as much immigration to Europe as well, per-capita as in the US, but a lot of it is undesired and the native Europeans have various cultural and bureaucratic glass ceilings to keep working class immigrants in the least desirable jobs, while they kept the more desirable governmental and managerial jobs.
Not knocking them for it, they're free to run their societies the way they see fit, but then they also shouldn't be surprised when second or third generation migrants growing up in the ghettos who are full citizens now, decide to blow themselves up, shoot up a cafe or drive a truck through a crowd, because of how unaccepted and held down they feel by society.
parheric
I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives.
The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are).
The good part, from my experience the people here are great, friendly, and yeh it takes time to get to know them but it pays off in the long run. But professionally... it's complicated.
So while people come here, work and stay for a few years, they're going to leave when they realise that despite their best efforts, they need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on).
And this sadly affects applications for jobs (a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK), apply for apartments (which country is your last name from... automatic rejection), just to mention a few key cases that really affect immigration.
i've lived+worked in 4 different countries on 3 continents and i think you always have to expect to adjust to the culture, it's not going to change for you, nor should it. But if you want to progress professionally (and Germany NEEDS tech-imports, the tech culture here is a disaster, it's embarrassing) you're going to have to promote these people into high positions, not just view them as "cheaper labour".
gehwartzen
One thing I will point out is that some of this partially due to coming to Germany with a US passport. Specifically, banks in Europe are increasingly weary of allowing US passport holders to open full account due to the international reach of the IRS and the additional bourdons it creates for banks. A US citizen living abroad still has a responsibilities with regard to reporting financial activities to the IRS. This is an extra liability and risk for foreign banks so in many cases they chose to simply not deal with Americans.
I was born in Germany and have a German passport. When I was a teen my family moved to the US and and have since also gotten my American citizenship. I have been considering moving back. I talked to my aunt who lives in Switzerland who told me not to bother trying to open a Swiss account it’s virtually impossible as long as you have a US passport. Germany is slightly better but at most there are 2-3 (mainly online only) banks where you might be able to get a basic (ie bare bones) account.
The IRS has the ability to compel foreign banks to freeze assets of US citizens living abroad or at least to make it a paperwork nightmare for them. I can understand why a company might not want to promote an individual to senior positions if banks are weary of dealing with them.
whateverboat
I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.
parheric
Bang on... it's initially about opportunity. But when that runs out, people move on.
And with the offer of DE citizenship where you're not giving up your birth citizenship, most people will take it, and move somewhere else in EU with a shiney new DE passport.
4gotunameagain
This is not a bad thing. Wealth inequality is destructive for societies.
odiroot
And you believe Germany somehow avoided it? Nice one.
Don't worry, wealthy people manage fine in Germany and multiply their capital.
It's just a glass ceiling on a middle class.
rawbot
I agree with the feeling, but the market doesn't. Inflation in the last 8 years has been slowly strangling families. And that's without mentioning the fact that owning an apartment or home is basically impossible without inheritance or being upper-class.
So for most middle-class families, the work grind will continue for the rest of their life, until retirement (if it even exists by then), without anything to show for it (owning the place you live in). How are people even going to be able to pay for their rent between retirement (67 years old) and assisted living (+75 years old)?
ecshafer
There is a level where it's probably bad (France, Russia, China prior to revolutions). But wealth equality (Russia, China, Cambodia, all of eastern Europe, Cuba, etc. AFTER revolutions) seems to be infinitely more destructive.
TFYS
The issue is concentration of power. Wealth inequality is just one way destructive levels of power concentration can happen. We need low wealth inequality along with truly democratic government.
whateverboat
Yeah, these people are not looking to become super rich. They are coming from very poor backgrounds (compared to median wealth in Germany) and they want to reach upper middle class levels (wealth wise, not income wise) for those countries.
inigyou
It has to be balanced against forward progress.
Arnt
Uh-huh.
A small town where I've lived was very much like its neighbours, but one particular neigbour was different in two clearly visible ways: ① there were (still are) more rich people in that neighbour and ② it was much easier to get financing for starting and growing companies in that neighbour.
dgellow
Just to add, the experience can be quite different between Bundesland (for example the tech culture in Berlin can be really decent IMHO). And the Bewerbungsfoto is technically not allowed to be required (but often expected in practice, though I personally don’t remember sending one).
Overall that comment sounds quite true based on my experience. I had a way better time contracting for foreign companies from Germany
zihotki
That resonates a lot with my experience in Netherlands. It's way friendlier for expats but the barrier is there
IAmBroom
[flagged]
dang
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
arjie
> > > The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are).
Can someone explain what the "strongest plausible interpretation of this" is in this context? It sounds like straightforward xenophobia from the Germans but the other guy who said so got flagged by the moderator. That implies that the strong interpretation is entirely obvious but I don't know what it is, and I can't get it out of an LLM. If it were that anyone takes a long time before they're trusted, that's institutional slowness. If the slowness is reserved for an "outsider" and not for a "native" then that feels like the natural interpretation is xenophobia.
I can understand why a foreigner in Germany (the outsider here) would be hesitant to say anything so I understand that part.
dang
You're adding a lot of assumptions in order to reach that conclusion.
Generally it's not a good idea to reduce someone else's comment to a blunt denunciation, and especially not when you're adding a putdown of your own ("that is a LOT of words"). The commenter was obviously offering a complex expression of their experience and not just circomlocuting a crudity.
arjie
I assume you mean "you" here in the sense of "one" because I didn't say those other things. And certainly the "that is a lot of words" framing is something I personally dislike as well, but the conclusion seems accurate, doesn't it?
If German companies routinely have a glass ceiling for foreigners that they don't have for natives then surely in the American context we'd consider that bigotry of some sort and certainly if it were in the US we'd consider it a Title VII violation of the CRA on the basis of national origin.
I think it would help to provide an example by construction: relax one or more of the assumptions you think are being smuggled in and describe how it is not xenophobia to do what the German organizations OP was at were doing. I'm struggling to come up with something here - some kind of cultural mismatch not related to language fluency?
What it seems to me is that the OP, immigrant that he is, is describing a fairly xenophobic society that he nonetheless has to live in and is therefore not using explicit labels for.
FinnLobsien
I‘m German, but I no longer live in Germany, so I can’t relate to the experience of immigrating to Germany.
I think a big part of the issue is a certain German presumptuousness.
There’s a general sense that Germany is a prosperous, influential country. The reason for that must be that things are done correctly in Germany.
I think this is an inherited attitude that doesn’t really correspond to reality anymore as systems are crumbling and a trip to many other European countries (including those Germans grew up to view as a barbaric hinterland or as holiday destinations) shows them that even small towns can have fast mobile internet, that you can pay by card at market vendors, and that the government can use computers.
probably_wrong
I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues.
First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "most of them") you may very well wonder why staying here alone when you could be just as unemployed near your family.
Second: I won't say that Germany is xenophobic (not even all AfD voters) but I will say it's unfriendly. Work example: I've worked in multiple places in German without language issues, and yet many jobs automatically disqualify me because they ask for "minimum C2", a rank I don't have and one that many native Germans wouldn't achieve either. Add less chances to make a social circle, inflexibility, not great weather, and a government that's constantly calling you lazy and entitled, and that's how you get depressed.
The sad part is, Germany has all the pieces to be a great place to live that, for some reason, has decided to dismantle them all one by one.
froh
there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually...
I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent.
if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement.
in contrast you can study in german language at a German university with C1 proficiency already.
cloudie78
What has kept you from achieving C2, you’ve been there for 10y+
skylurk
Just ask Mark Twain ;)
polotics
There are sclerotic forces at work in Germany.
I sometimes wonder if the digestion of East-Germany hasn't somehow hurt a post-war rejuvenated Western&Southern German spirit.
Maybe it's just post-traumatic-stress from the Russian occupation still lingering: 1989 is not that far, generations-wise.
There is hope still... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw
throwawaypath
>First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on.
Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!
_zoltan_
that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD.
and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switzerland votes.
And I'm writing this as an immigrant myself... It's sad.
ifwinterco
The backlash is baked in now I think, people hoping it will just go away are delusional.
But if European elites (including UK) are smart they should be able to avoid the worst outcomes, most people don't really want trouble.
Issue is, there's no sign of smartness so far
atoav
The issues you see now in Germany are the direct consequence of the Merkel era conservative government and its austerity policy. They really wanted to get the deficit down at all cost. And all cost included any sort of needed maintenance on public infrastructure.
talon8635
I have zero knowledge on German politics. But I do wonder, if these same problems are plagues many (most) big cities (and even countries) in the west, including very liberal and high spending governments, how can we safely conclude it’s a conservative problem (or a liberal one)?
atoav
Well in this case it is a documented trail of defering needed maintenance with the argument of needing to safe money.
I did not argue that this is a outcome that can only happen to conservative governments. In fact I am convinced it is a fundamental problem of how politics work: you elect politicians to government for a limited period, so they often try to push off costs for which the ultimate prize will be paid to the next period, in which they may not be in government anymore.
But of course conservative governments tend to be more often part of that dynamic since austerity politics and conservatism often (although, not always) go hand in hand. Often the austerity has a smidgen of corruption as well, where government contracts that then need to be made (urgently! since maintenance was deferred!) often go to the politicians private friends. Free market for thee and not for me.
Another classic is to starve some working government/public institutions budget, only to then point at the mess and explain why this needs to privatized (coincidentally you know exactly the right guy to step in, what a surprise).
I am not saying that it is only conservative polticians that do that, but it tends to be a bit harder to do while e.g. demanding democratic socialist policy and strong public institutions.
criddell
While Germany and some other Western countries were going along with the IMF and their austerity policies, Japan just kept printing money. Where would you rather live today? (I've been to Japan (Tokyo) but never Germany, so I have no opinion)
It's going to be interesting to see the long term consequences of the choices different nations made along the way.
mimischi
Danke Merkel!
/s
cineticdaffodil
Wir schaffen das/s!
akudha
All this discussion makes me wonder - is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy? Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc).
It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media? I don't know for sure.
malshe
I know the US gets a lot of flak due to the current administration's policies and actions. Despite that it is still the best country for immigrants with the caveat 'Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc)'
throw-the-towel
More generally, I'd say the Americas are a step above Europe when it comes to ease of integration. In South America, people often assumed I'm immigrating, and made it clear I was welcome. In Europe, where I actually tried to immigrate, I'm treated as just a long-staying tourist. (Not blaming anyone here, they can run their countries however I want, but it's just silly to expect that people who have choice would come to Europe.)
NostraDavid
> It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general
Not the concept itself, but the insane numbers. Even South Africa is having "anti-migrant" protests (by the _black_ population; important detail, due to history).
Having 1-2% of your population come in as migrants* is pretty nuts; no negative migration afterwards; number only goes up. I cannot see how this is going to end well in the long run.
*: This is for the Netherlands, for the last 5 years since 2024 (that's the latest numbers I got from our Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS)). That is _just_ economic migration. It's insane. I made some visualizations: https://tbataafschebroederschap.nl/projects/autochtoonse-ned...
rdbl27
Yes. The United States.
Despite the whirlwind of media to the contrary, the US is very welcoming to foreigners who follow the laws (that is, don't enter illegally) and make an effort to integrate by learning the language and customs.
Much more than any other country on Earth.
theLiminator
> Much more than any other country on Earth.
What about Canada?
smithoc
> is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy?
The United States.
> It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media?
The world is turning hostile to immigration because the media (and social media sites) highlight and repeat the bad anecdotes, while barely mentioning the actual data showing positive outcomes.
suburban_strike
What data suggests there is a positive outcome for the first world in integrating with the third world? Because my data suggests we're enthusiastically recreating the conditions that led to the Yugoslav civil wars.
And even you know it; I saw your other comment before you deleted it. You are well aware that there is a tipping point, and expressed disappointment that natives are resistant to the path that leads to it. It's like you want there to be ethnic violence.
graemep
Lots of people want to migrate from one country to another, so they clearly think their own lives would be improved (bar a few doing it altruistically).
As for including the locals lives, how? You might be bringing skills they need, or money. Do you mean purely socially? That is very subjective.
I think the media exaggerate the hostility. IMO most of the hostility here in the UK is aimed at 1) illegal immigrants and asylum seekers and 2) Muslims. There is also rising hostility to Jews, but usually from an entirely different group to those hostile to Muslims.
haritha-j
Because it’s quite difficult to tell whether someone is in the UK illegally just by looking at them, I imagine some of that hostility isn’t very well contained.
throw-the-towel
That really depends on what country are they coming from, and how established they are in life. As an extreme example, someone from Sudan would benefit by moving out, if only by being in a stable place that's not being ravaged by civil war.
sixothree
We aren't really talking about this loneliness epidemic that is not contained to any one particular country. I can imagine how difficult it is to move to a new place now, no matter where it is, and especially in the future if the trend continues.
joe_mamba
> is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy?
Not really anymore. All the good ponds have all been fished out by now.
Housing is in short supply in every livable city in the western world and the job market is tight right now, so if you move there now, you're one, increasing labor competition for the locals, and two, rising housing prices for the locals. THe only locals happy with this arrangement are the corporation hiring you and the landlord taking your money.
The world has min-maxed itself into oblivion that it's already reached saturation point. We're way passed the balance point, everything is fucked, there's no magic place on the planet where things are nice for everyone.
smithoc
It's too bad that no immigrants work in construction to build more housing. If we could import lower cost laborers to build houses, that would greatly improve the housing affordability problem, but sadly, every time I go past a construction site, all I see are white guys whose great-great-great grandparents came over on the Mayflower.
throw-the-towel
This is spot on. Even if the opportunity is still better in the West than elsewhere, the trend is to the worse. It feels much more rewarding to have a less tasty slice of a growing pie, than a tastier slice that's shrinking. (And the others behave with less toxicity, to boot.)
libertine
There's been a lot of pressure to break the EU for quite some time, and now even the US is also aiming for this.
It's a lot of misinformation and funding from too many countries, for a long time.
What's impressive is how much this tension had actually been holding on, which goes to show that education actually plays an important role when dealing with misinformation.
Sadly it was successful in the UK.
schnitzelstoat
I lived there for around 6 months like 15 years ago so perhaps it's changed a lot since then.
But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Saturday just to make sure I could get the shopping done.
I remember once I waved at my neighbours who were sitting eating in a common garden area and they acted super confused that I would wave to them.
It didn't seem like an especially friendly place and there were so many rules about everything too, like just being able to take the rubbish or recycling out you had specific days and times.
kuerbel
I'm from Switzerland and live in Germany and I think it is very relaxed. Too relaxed for my liking to be honest. Sometimes the bins are still out in the evening??? What kind of anarchy is this ;-)
Really, it's just what you are accustomed with.
Stores closing on Sunday is a good thing I think, it makes it easier for families to have a day together and kind of resets the week. On Saturdays they are also open until 8pm, some even until 10pm or so.
>I remember once I waved at my neighbours who were sitting eating in a common garden area and they acted super confused that I would wave to them.
You need to yell "Moin" very loudly. If you are in Southern Germany, you need to yell "MOIN" twice as loud to establish dominance.
joshvm
Any expat who has lived in Europe knows the pain of having to run to the train station on a Sunday because you ran out of some ingredient.
ido
Supermarket opening times are definitely not that restrictive (these days, but I don't recall it ever being like you mentioned & I moved to Berlin in 2013). The ones near me are usually open early morning till late evening (8-10pm), monday to saturday.
throw-the-towel
The way you call 8pm "late evening" confirms GP's experience :)
ido
8-10pm for the supermarkets near me & well later than that is night not evening :) It's certainly not 5pm is what I meant.
myrmidon
There is a lot of regional variation, mainly between the south and the rest of the country. 8am to 8pm monday to saturday is typical for Bavaria (Munich, Nuremberg).
red-iron-pine
to quote a relative "Germany is a great country to live in, except for all of the Germans"
maccard
It’s funny you give out about supermarket opening hours when being English - Sunday trading laws are arcane in England too!
sph
I remember visiting London and being surprised that pubs would close at 11pm and night life, outside of clubs, would pretty much die. In the largest city in Europe! Mad stuff.
When I moved back to Italy I had forgotten that shops close between 13 and 15:30. Every country has their own little quirks
maccard
Yep! I used to live in Ireland and pubs being closed on Good Friday was like the end of the world.
rsynnott
Not just pubs; it was also off-licenses. The Thursday before at my local supermarket was always like the apocalypse, with people panic-buying booze.
There were some weird exceptions to the rule, too; in particular you could buy alcohol on trains.
disgruntledphd2
And in train stations and airports!
I kinda miss the old Good Friday laws, it made it a great day for parties as all the pubs were closed.
ForHackernews
This is funny because when I moved from the USA to UK I was caught off guard by "Sunday trading laws"[0] and even where not legally prohibited, it seems like most retailers other than vape stores or corner shops close at 5:30 or 6 pm, Since covid, we have to book an appointment in advance to go to the tip.
I think things have improved a little bit over the past few years – one large retail park near us advertises "late opening" (7 pm! ha!) on Thursdays — but it's still difficult to run errands during the week. I don't understand why it makes sense economically to only have your store open when no one with a 9-5 job can shop there.
gib444
Have you visited London recently? Particularly east. It's got the unfriendliness but also complete total breakdown of the social contract and social decency
Music and video calls without headphones on all transport all the time. Shoes and socks off on train seats. Zombies barging into you constantly. Nobody letting people off the train.
Throwing rubbish on the ground. Leaving it on trains and buses.
Vaping on the tube
Pushing through the barriers at stations is normalised
Everyone does whatever the hell they like everywhere all the time. Constant antisocial behaviour. It's hell. An absolute epicenter of selfishness
I dream of a rule based society like Germany or UK of years ago
Edit: am a Brit but wouldn't live in London for love nor money. Obviously a lot of those issues aren't just in London. This isn't "foreigner repeating right wing talking points" people love trying here
TMWNN
>But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Saturday just to make sure I could get the shopping done.
If it were the Anglosphere that had very restrictive laws about store hours/days of operation, and Germany/Austria with pretty much unlimited hours, this would be the #1 topic brought up in any online discussion whatsoever about the US/UK/etc. But because of DACH's smaller cultural visibility, it isn't brought up nearly so often in actuality.
Alien1Being
German discrimination and racism towards migrant workers and visible minorities is world class.
And with Alternative für Deutschland / AfD rising rapidly, this is only going to get much, much worse.
https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/70478/study-finds-racis...
https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/germany-...
heyheyhouhou
I'm from a "southern" country and I lived in Germany for 10 years. My kids were born there.
Last year we decided to move to my home country because of "too many things" but also fed up of feeling an immigrant.
Few months ago I met a German family living around here in a coastal area. I asked them why they moved here and they answered me straight to my face "Because in Germany there are too many immigrants". I think the joke tells itself.
talon8635
I’d be various curious what country you’re from that such people would feel comfortable moving to. But of course don’t share if you don’t want.
olelele
I moved to Germany 15 years ago from Scandinavia. Integrating here is really tough. The bureaucratic systems are very opaque and small mistakes in paperwork can cause a lot of problems...
rawbot
And the problem is that they might not be YOUR mistakes, but mistakes from someone in the government office... ask me how I know about it...
wojciii
How do you know about it? :)
Here in DK we have a law with my family name in it .. which the fuckers spelled wrong. I asked them to correct it but they refused. This is the story about how I became a citizen.
sdsdssweew213
I would hardly call it "world class". Most of the world is much harsher place to migrants than any EU member country. Privileged, well paid expats may be treated nicely in most of the world, but that does not apply to refugees and people who move for low-paid manual labor.
uludag
Well paid expats wearing a hijab, who definitely aren't refugees, will not be treated nicely in Germany. Lived and worked in Germany and saw it a lot. It's a low bar indeed to treat skilled labor coming to your country nicely that sadly Germany can't even pass.
cineticdaffodil
Skilled labour? Skilled labour goes to the UK, to the US, to canada! You goto germany to leach on the wellfare system with your clan!
sillyfluke
Sure, but I think what grates on people with Germany is the "they should know better" aspect of it. People have (or had) expectations of EU countries they don't have of "the harsher places".
phainopepla2
Sometimes called the soft bigotry of low expectations
talon8635
No I don’t think so. The “Germany should know better” is more akin to irony
Soft bigotry of low expectation is not open hostility so much as a giving up on a people—-X people are inherently incapable, so just let them be, don’t expect anything from them. As a result of painless low expectation, no one strives, no one offers them opportunities, the people don’t move forward, and the low expectation fuels further low expectation based on poor performance.
Mor maybe you were referring to expectation of other EU countries to be unwelcoming?
Tade0
> Foreigners and native Germans 'unite' in discriminatory attitudes
I don't think it's just the Germans and there's definitely an additional factor at play.
expedition32
Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants.
ButlerianJihad
Interesting story about Europe's medieval history, is that the bankers and loan officers and financial professionals were all drawn from a certain ethnoreligious community. And this intrinsic nature of being the foremost, and usually the only, bankers and financial professionals, who were essentially authorized to commit usury and extract interest from the populace... probably had a lot to do with their public perception, their lack of assimilation or integration into the prevailing local faith/religion/cultures, and their relentless persecutions, expulsions, and genocide.
Nevertheless, all that ugly history doesn't seem like it's put a damper on their ambitions or status through the 21st century.
prolly97
I mean... yes discrimination doesn't feel nice... but it's not as if people who come to Germany where forced to do so by the germans. I'm not from Germany, but the vibes in some of the high-muslim density parts of Germany I've been to have likewise felt unwelcome, unsafe and hostile (towards me as a scandinavian).
So it feel a bit more complicated than "germans are racist, BAD". Anecdotally I've heard that it's hard for any other nationality to do business in germany, simply because they prefer to do business with other germans. It's their country, we just need to accept those cultural differences, and their right to do as they please in their own country.
There's plenty of countries whose laws or attitudes I don't agree with, and that I just don't visit or have any ambition of staying in. China, Burkina Faso, Somalia and Chad are a few examples.
talon8635
Not to mention the fact that all of those home countries are equally if not more openly racist and restrictive of immigrants from the other direction
The question is, is any country “perfect” in this regard, showing zero degree of self-selecting and internal favoritism? I suspect not, because it’s not really possible to have a country without focusing on, well, itself, first and foremost. Of course integrated immigrants ARE part of “the country”. But if immigrations swells too fast and/or immigrants are not well integrated, then of course that can present obvious non-racism-based problems for the county’s finances, infrastructure, economy, and culture.
Is anyone outside the west throwing the word “racist” around so liberally? It seems to west thinks it’s somehow evolved beyond the natural constraints of state/tribe. But, of course, it can’t.
Tade0
As an outsider, but hailing from Germany's eastern neighbor and one of the largest sources of immigrants:
Overall sentiment is that the juice ain't worth the squeeze any more.
Back when my country became a full member of Schengen(2008) the ratio of GDP per capita between Germany and us was around 3.3x - salaries were roughly proportionally higher, so just about any job was worth moving there and potentially going through the hoops required to establish a permanent residence.
Earlier, especially throughout the 90s that ratio didn't go below 5, so a sizeable number of people attempted to move to Germany by any means possible.
Currently it hovers at around 2.1x and most of the discrepancy in salaries is focused on the trades.
A specialist from Poland typically doesn't have access to higher tier salaries, so they don't really enjoy a different quality of life than at home, so they have no reason to move.
gtirloni
That is, if they can even get a work visa through the proper channels while following all requirements.
I had read Kafka's The Castle before dealing with the German immigration office but that experience gave me a new perspective.
anthonj
I think there is also a chicken-egg problem in almost every country that doesn't use English as official language:
If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study --> to live there you need a job --> back to start
Different counties have different tolerances regarding how quick you pick up the local language. For Germany and France this tolerance is almost 0, for Netherlands it's much higher.
prolly97
Anecdotally I've noticed that among the coworkers I've had from other countries, the ones who manage to learn danish and stay, have generally been in areas with lower density of foreign workers.
My theory is that in areas with lower densities of foreign nationals, you'd benefit more socially form learning the local language.
rawbot
In Germany, if you are an non-software Engineer, you MUST have an excellent level of the language. I have not seen a single Engineering position that doesn't require C1.
anthonj
I know some electronic and mech engineers with no german skills, but it's always in young startup in major cities.
lukeweston1234
As someone who moved from the U.S to Germany and has been here for ~15 months, I figured I would drop a few comments while I'm running a NixOS rebuild.
Let me start with the wonderful things: Public transportation is nice, at least compared to the U.S. I like the shared sense of responsibility that Germans have with things like recycling. The directness is quite nice, in the U.S I often had to question if someone was being genuine or not, and that is not really a problem here. If you're into various hobbies, clubs, etc., Germany has really incredible communities and clubs for so many things, and they're very organized about this, it's quite nice. The nature is great, and I've really enjoyed exploring different areas.
As for the negatives, it's clear in Germany that you're looking at buying into their system, for life so to speak. You don't find yourself getting equity, trading stocks, buying a home, etc. You generally are expected to work, keep your head down, and hopefully acquire an apartment where the rent won't increase while you support the social system (for the record, I am more than okay with paying my share, but I was shocked at the difference in take home pay, and particularly how it feels compared to the U.S). Buying a home is likely not going to be in the cards for most, and there is so much paperwork, painful and expensive driving courses, and strange decisions as well with starting your own business. I have for instance a few projects where I could be taking revenue, but I specifically am not as it would make my visa situation more complicated, and am instead waiting for a year or two.
Germany is really not a convenience culture, I consistently find myself exhausted. This might sound stupid, but in the U.S, I can simply hop in a car and grab a reasonably healthy Chipotle bowl or similar, get enough protein and vegetables, etc. In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all.
Additionally, the language is brutal, it's hard to explain just how exhausting it is to learn while you're working full time. I have probably spent ~600 hours practicing yet I am still only about an A2 speaking level, with my understanding generally being a bit higher.
All in all, I'm happy I made the switch, it's been incredibly rewarding, but it truly is exhausting. I can see how this would add up, and I often think about how easy my life might be in the United States, and I miss this easy, casual life that's been replaced for something that really expects and demands so much from me, every single day and interaction.
thi2
Germans tend to differentiate between getting takeout (something like kebab/pizza/asia box to go or delivered home) or eating out (going to a restaurant and eating there).
But I'd argue for most people getting into the car to get takeout is not very common.
lukeweston1234
Yeah and honestly, it shouldn't be. It was really strange going back to the U.S and having family members suggest we drive to get ice cream. It's incredibly wasteful.
That being said, I've noticed that these takeout meals tend to be pretty low quality and unhealthy and I miss this middle ground that I could lean on once or twice a week.
soco
Thinking about my Swiss village, the only takeout worth thinking about is the delicious kebab downhill which doesn't do delivery. Otherwise it would be all eat.ch and similar. Why should I drive when I can get it delivered for no extra cost? I guess it's just a cultural difference, not a drawback (in either direction)
socalgal2
Maybe you need to live somewhere with more options to compare?
As one example, Tokyo has 160,000 restaurants. NYC has 21k. Divided by population that's 5x more in Tokyo.
Other example would be most major Asian cities. Taipei for example has 20-30 night markets each with 50 to 500 stalls. Kuala Lumpur has mamak food stand areas all over, often open till 4am.
throw-the-towel
I buy takeout instead of delivery just to get out of the house.
froh
clubs! yes! Vereine! they still are the heart and soul of Germany.
inigyou
Are you in a big city? There is so much takeout food everywhere in Berlin.
4gotunameagain
> In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all.
That is wildly false. First of all the availability of eating out options is directly influenced by where you are (e.g. in Berlin there is incredible variety of cuisines, price ranges and healthiness), and secondly almost every food or grocery you buy in Germany is of higher quality than the US equivalent.
I remember my shock when every single food item I bought in the US had sugar in it.
lukeweston1234
I mean there are exceptions in cities with a higher immigrant presence like Berlin, but for a lot of Germany you're simply looking at low quality kebab, pizza, or burgers.
There also seems to be this general perception of food in the U.S being so bad, this is true for areas that are strongly lacking access, i.e inner cities, rural areas (much of the country to be fair!), but if you're in an agricultural hub in the U.S you can have absolutely incredible access to farmers markets and fresh produce. A lot of regional grocery stores have fresh sourdough and other breads similar in quality to the stuff you can find at Lidl/Aldi/Edeka.
4gotunameagain
You are definitely right that there are places in the US with great produce e.g. rural cali - much better than Germany's - but I still feel that on average there is higher quality food in Germany, less ultra processed food and a healthier food culture in general.
Of course I haven't scoured the states (not even Germany for that matter), so.. :)
socalgal2
I don't know German produce but I'm pretty confident California, where I'm from, doesn't compare to Paris' farmers markets. The variety and quality there were way beyond all the farmers markets and produce stands I've been to over my life in California. That said, I certainly noticed a difference between California and Maryland, at least at the time. But, having experienced better I no longer consider California good. As one example, I have very bad luck trying to find a tomato with any flavor.
superze
Why would anyone wanna go to a country that pays them low abuses them and they end up alone with no friends because this is Germany.
throw-the-towel
In my case (not Germany but also in the EU), I just bought into European propaganda too much.
stronglikedan
not to mention taxes the shit out of them with little to no return on their investment
bell-cot
Various combinations of "they didn't know", "still better than the place they left", "their experience wasn't that bad", and "needed for their resume".
ramon156
> and they end up alone with no friends
This sounds like a personal issue. Is Germany at fault here?
rawbot
It is a personal issue for sure. But people from "warmer" cultures often struggle with the "colder" culture, at least in Northern Germany. And that sometimes leads to people from other countries seeking or making friend group with other migrants.
IAmBroom
> pays them low abuses them
Sounds more like systemic prejudice than "OP lacks social skills".
CalRobert
I like Germany, studied German a bit in college, etc but when my family and I decided to move somewhere that suited us because we could work from anywhere Germany really failed to impress. We ended up in the Netherlands which offers a a lot of the perks people associate with Germany (perhaps wrongly, good trains were one of the things we wanted) without as many of the downsides.
jdappletini
This used to the case with the USA as well but it took them the last 40-50 years to reform. Maybe there's hope for Germany as well.
froh
guys, join a Verein. some Verein. any Verein. that's where Germans make friends when we're new in town.
lifestyleguru
They joined verein but didn't notice it's two years contract with auto renewal, cancellation three months in advance by letter. Left the country after receiving Mahnbescheid. Have fun in this asshole-verein.
sinuhe69
When people came to the country to work then retire somewhere else, isn’t it not a net benefit for Germany? Less burden on the social net, healthcare system etc.
So what the Germans did is right, not wrong!
froh
errr, no? when you work here for long enough you accrue pension benefits which are paid out wherever you live.
if you retire abroad you spend the pension abroad. that's a net loss for the nation.
wojciii
This reminds me that I got fired from a German company (operating in DK) because I asked too many questions and would not stop complaining about the software architecture which was terrible.
The company culture was clashing with the Danish culture that I was used to and also I didn't give a fuck.
lifestyleguru
They got millennials from post-Communist countries after all transition periods for new EU members have passed sometime around 2011. Were already lucky because they didn't open the market straight away in 2004 like Ireland, UK, and Sweden. Germans were overconfident because their largest demographic boom was in their 40s back then.
Treated that immigration wave like shit. They left.
Germans worked really hard for every single nasty thing which is about to happen to them.
ahf8Aithaex7Nai
I am the son of a (Cuban) immigrant and a German woman. Once, the police asked me if I spoke German, probably because my hair is dark and my eyes are brown. Germany has a bias against “southerners”—the darker your skin, the worse it is. If your skin is light and your eyes are light-colored, you won’t even be perceived as an immigrant as long as you keep your mouth shut. But if you look southern or Asian, you’ll always be a “Kanake” or “Fitschi,” even if in every other respect you’re more German than most Germans.
Racism here isn’t so severe that it leaves you with bruises, but you notice it in the little things. For example, this year I was looking for a new apartment with my partner, and when I first made contact, I used her German last name instead of my foreign one—just to be on the safe side. Whenever I do have to deal with the police—for example, because of a traffic accident or something similar—it seems like who gets blamed depends on skin color. If some guy named Hans Müller cuts me off, the police are still on his side. If I cut off someone named Achmed, strangely enough, they’re on my side. The last startup I worked for as a developer really played up its left-liberal, progressive image. Even so, the bosses were blond and blue-eyed, and the janitors were Black Africans. I could fill an entire book with impressions like these.
All the bureaucratic hurdles mentioned in the article are probably intentional. The aim is to make it difficult for foreigners to come here and stay, because these people are not wanted here. In recent years, even politicians deep within the left-liberal spectrum have touted the fact that the so-called migration problem has been brought under control. In other words, they have adopted the right-wing premise that migration itself is a problem, rather than the way migrants are treated and integrated.
The tragedy is that we’re running out of people of working age. We’re having too few children and are turning into an aging society. Over the next twenty years, this will hit us like a bus driving toward a cliff, while none of the passengers see the impending disaster. Immigration could be our salvation, but we just don’t want brown people.
At the same time, German society is tearing itself apart through policies that lack solidarity. Life is meant to be made as difficult and harsh as possible for people with average incomes. The last remnants of the welfare state are being gradually dismantled over successive legislative terms. Everything is being ruined by austerity measures. There is no longer any awareness that collective investments in education and public infrastructure are, in fact, investments that will yield a real return later on—for example, in the form of well-educated people, transportation networks that allow goods to be transported smoothly, or nationwide internet access when you need it. Instead, everything must be milked dry by the private sector, or it’s simply left to rot (or both).
Another comment here mentions that sclerotic forces are at work in Germany. I think that’s an apt description. It frustrates me immensely that society can’t pull itself together to take bold steps toward shaping a positive future. Instead, we have to watch as the country slowly withers away, while one idiot after another takes the reins of government to orchestrate the next round of bloodletting.
It's gotten to the point where I've now lost faith in democracy. Things aren't getting better—they're just getting worse and worse. And all I can do is try to position myself in my personal life in such a way that I can hopefully protect myself and a few people around me from the worst damage caused by this decline.
svara
You are (as am I) in the 30% of Germans (40% in major cities) with a Migrationshintergrund.
At that point, it barely makes sense to call that a minority, it's just normalcy. If you find yourself in a pocket of unusual backwardness where it feels otherwise, you should probably leave.
I pass as German based on looks, but my name is weird and my wife doesn't look or sound German at all. I don't think her or I have ever noticed any adverse consequences from that.
If your German is good, you can just act and feel like you belong here and no one will challenge that.
The people saying they're having trouble getting by with just English though are weird to me. What did they expect? Different countries are different, that's sort of the point.
I do actually agree that Germany isn't the best country when you're looking for economic opportunity, but that isn't really what people are optimizing for here. You might disagree with this, but it's mostly not directed against immigrants.
Regarding your political points: Ironically, they sound very German to me. Yours is a standard left of center critique in German politics. The countries that have a long history of being targets for immigration largely don't work that way, probably because extensive social safety nets are bad for the acceptance of recent immigrants by locals.
antidisinfo123
this is a US state ran propaganda account. ethnic germans with brown eyes and brown hair are a thing
CamperBob2
Sounds like the sort of accusation that should be backed up with evidence rather than innuendo.
bell-cot
> It's gotten to the point where I've now lost faith in democracy. Things aren't getting better...
"it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" - unknown, often attributed to Churchill
Rah-rah democracy advocates, and patriots of countries which imagine themselves democratic, often attribute all sort of mythical virtues to democracy.
But the reality is no more than "statistically less bad than the alternatives".
These days, the by-far worst problem for most supposed democracies is the excessive financialization of wealth. A century ago, the personal fortunes of most better-off people were tied to the overall fortunes of the country, the province, the city, and the neighborhood in which they lived - giving them huge incentives to care about those collective fortunes. Vs. now, the prevailing attitude seems far closer to "when this place goes to shit, I'll just pack up and leave".
ahf8Aithaex7Nai
It’s a good recipe for consensus. I find it easier to reluctantly submit to the will of the majority than I would to the will of a minority. There are certainly a few opponents of democracy who feel exactly the opposite, but most people probably feel the same way I do. That is precisely where the stabilizing effect of democracy lies: it makes people compliant. But it is a misconception that democratic decisions are intrinsically better than others in terms of substance. A majority can pass nonsense just as easily as a minority can make wise decisions. What’s important in a democracy is that people truly believe that the will of the majority prevails—or, even more importantly, the common good. If they lose that belief, a democratic society slowly dies.
sscaryterry
My take: Nothing is funny in Germany? :)
Hi everyone
I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment.
We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep reading before judging). We have lived here for more than six years, and you know what? I still haven’t obtained either permanent residence or German citizenship simply because I don’t have a B1 certificate. So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here.
I was honestly devastated when the officer told me that I was not eligible for permanent residence. That was also the moment when I started to feel that maybe I don’t actually need permanent residence in this country after all.
Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them.
One bright thing is that maybe we’re still lucky. We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules. We simply worked hard and played the game in a way that we believed would be sustainable in the long run. Whatever happens, we know there are still many other places we could go.
Our children speak German natively, but they are also willing to go the extra mile to speak our mother tongue at home.
If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked!